transferring Pre-1898 handguns

[endwahl]

Greetings. I must be pretty dense but I searched through this forum and Chuck Michel's site and could find no answers, so call me confused.

What is required for the transfer, either within CA or from outside to within CA, of a handgun manufactured prior to 1899 (or 98? I'm even confused on that) which is capable of chambering current ammunition? Example being something like a Broomhandle Mauser or an S&W/Iver Johnson Lemon Squeezer, etc. Is cash & carry allowed? Can I just go ahead and buy one off of Auctionarms or Gunbroker? Or is a dealer transfer required?

Thanks in advance.

[Sampachi]

Cash & carry due to Antique classification. Just bought a 1895 dated M39 and awhile back bought an Iver Johnson .32 cal revolver at the Reno gunshow. I think proof of being 21 and older is your only hurdle.

[EOD Guy]

Greetings. I must be pretty dense but I searched through this forum and Chuck Michel's site and could find no answers, so call me confused.

What is required for the transfer, either within CA or from outside to within CA, of a handgun manufactured prior to 1899 (or 98? I'm even confused on that) which is capable of chambering current ammunition? Example being something like a Broomhandle Mauser or an S&W/Iver Johnson Lemon Squeezer, etc. Is cash & carry allowed? Can I just go ahead and buy one off of Auctionarms or Gunbroker? Or is a dealer transfer required?

Thanks in advance.

Handguns manufactured prior to 1899 are antiques and do not have to transfer through a dealer in California. The fact that the handgun uses currently available fixed cartridges does not matter. That restriction only applies to reproductions of antiques.

Laws are different in other States and some do require the same transfer procedures with antique handguns as with modern ones.

[littlejake]

I am not sure about that. When I first got my C&R I sat down with an attorney who specializes in firearms laws here in California. I wanted to not step on a mine in my C&R transfers. We got on the subject of pre-1899 handguns. I believe he stated that not all pre-1899 handguns could be transferred without going through a dealer. Antique muzzle loaders and obsolete caliber fix ammunition handguns, I believe are OK. There are pre-1899 hanguns that can chamber fixed ammunition that is still available in commerce. I think those need to go through a dealer. I tried to find a quote in the Penal Code to give you, but cannot find it presently. I would advise caution on pre-1899 hanguns.

Kindest Regards,

littlejake

[trautert]

The lawyer was wrong. End of the world? Probably not.

Per Federal and California state laws, firearms manufactured prior to 1899 are not considered firearms for transfer purposes. The issues about current ammunition availability regard a different point of the law.

[Palimino Stripe]

no- littlejake is right.

I've also read the law on the subject- and unless it's a muzzleloader- practically every pre-98 handgun still needs to be DROS'ed...

Per Federal and California state laws, firearms manufactured prior to 1899 are not considered firearms for transfer purposes.

True...for long guns... (and handguns in almost every other state)

...The issues about current ammunition availability regard a different point of the law.

Yeah- the handgun part.

-Palimino

[JaMail]

the FUD is getting strong in here..

A federally defined C&R pistol, regardless of age, can be imported into CA if it is legally purchased out of state by a CA resident with a Class 03 C&R FFL and if physical possession of the piece is taken by the Californian Class 03 C&R FFL outside of CA. It can be imported by the CA Class 03 C&R FFL purchaser only - hand carry it back or UPS it to yourself. Importation of the pistol must be reported within 5 days to the DOJ on their special form BCIA 4100A (NEW! download form 4100A HERE) with a $19 payment per firearm. Buying a C&R Makarov with your Class 03 C&R FFL in Las Vegas or Arizona and bringing it (or shipping it) back to California is OK if you register it within 5 days.

http://caag.state.ca.us/firearms/forms/pdf/curioapp.pdf

THis is why i was posting about driving or flying to arizona to J&G and buying a bunch of C&R handguns, then bringing them back into the state. I cant get them shipped by the seller, but I can buy them upfront as a cash and carry and ship them to myself.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

no- littlejake is right.

I'm sorry, but you and littlejake are incorrect. California treats unloaded "antique" handguns as non-firearms. They can be sold to people 18 years old and up in California without going through an FFL.

12001(e) For purposes of Sections 12070, 12071, and paragraph (8) of subdivision (a), and subdivisions (b), (c), (d), and (f) of Section 12072, the term "firearm" does not include an unloaded firearm that is defined as an "antique firearm" in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.

12078(p)(6) Subparagraph (A) of paragraph (3) of subdivision (a) of Section 12072 shall not apply to the sale of a handgun if both of the following requirements are satisfied:
(A) The sale is to a person who is at least 18 years of age.
(B) The firearm is an antique firearm as defined in paragraph (16) of subsection (a) of Section 921 of Title 18 of the United States Code.

[Mssr. Eleganté]

the FUD is getting strong in here..

A federally defined C&R pistol, regardless of age, can be imported into CA if it is legally purchased out of state by a CA resident with a Class 03 C&R FFL and if physical possession of the piece is taken by the Californian Class 03 C&R FFL outside of CA....

This thread is about antique handguns. We aren't talking about C&R's in this thread.

[Palimino Stripe]

I guess I stand corrected... I could have sworn that wasn't the case though...

By the way- You left your pocketwatch in the hot tub, When will you be back to retrieve it?

-Palimino

[Mssr. Eleganté]

I guess I stand corrected... I could have sworn that wasn't the case though...

As trautert mentioned above, there is a section of California law where the definition of antique that you were thinking of comes into play. But it is only the CPC 12020 section about unlawful carrying and possession of certain weapons...

12020(b)(5) Any antique firearm. For purposes of this section, "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

That's the only section where they use that limited definition of "antique". Everywhere else in the PC they just use the Federal definition.

By the way- You left your pocketwatch in the hot tub, When will you be back to retrieve it?

-Palimino

[littlejake]

Thanks for the references from the Penal Code. Looks like I can get my little Sharps 4 barrel pepper box in .22 rimfire. I passed up a nice one a guy in San Diego had because we were both unsure of the transfer interstate.

[EOD Guy]

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