Is It Still C&R If ... ?

[gamename]

Hi,

One question came up concerning a C&R rifle I'm considering (M1 Carbine).

If the receiver was made during WWII, but some other component, the barrel for example, has been replaced, is it still a C&R rifle? Put another way, if the barrel was replaced 20 years ago, but the receiver was made 50+ years ago, is the rifle still considered to be under all the C&R rules for transfer, shipment, etc.?

TIA,
-T

[NRAhighpowershooter]

Yes it's still a C&R......

[FatKatMatt]

C & R stands for Curio & Relic; any gun over 50 years old is automatically a relic under the current law, so if the receiver was made during WWII it really doesn't matter how the gun was modified.

[chiefcrash]

it depends:

if the replacement part is a faithful reproduction of the original, then yes it still has C&R status

example: M1 garand with replacement reproduction 30'06 barrel is still C&R, but a M1 garand that was .30'06 and has had a .308 barrel installed is no longer C&R

this is just the federal C&R status. even if you sporterized the hell out of that M1 Garand and made it shoot .22LR from AK47 mags, the reciever is still 50 years old. Which means you can give it to another resident of California without a 01 FFL because of CALIFORNIA'S 50+ year old exemption

does that make sense? i'm a little drunk, so i'll try to clarify in the morning if need be

[M. Sage]

I thought caliber change and/or sporterization was a gray area as far as C&R was concerned. Anybody got sources?

[blkA4alb]

C & R stands for Curio & Relic; any gun over 50 years old is automatically a relic under the current law, so if the receiver was made during WWII it really doesn't matter how the gun was modified.

No, if you modify the gun in a "non sporting" manner it loses its C&R status. Such as adding a flash hider or thumbhole stock (not taking into account SB23.)

Learn the laws before you recite them definitely.

[TonyNorCal]

This is a gray area. And, aside from the ATF's 'original military configuration' and all firearms 50 year + rule I've never seen anything written which clarifies exactly where the line is...and it may not be possible to do given all the variation.

An M1 Carbine that has been refurbed is certainly a C&R.

Fulton Armory sends completely rebuilt M1 Garands (starting with a USGI receiver) in .30.-06, .308, and .270 to C&R holders. I'm sure if that wasn't legal the ATF would have likely noticed.

Interordnance modifies their Yugo 59/66s with muzzle brakes and still sells them as C&R (the fact that it's not legal under California law for a C&R holder to receive them is another issue). Again, the ATF doesn't seem to care.

I believe the 'non-sporting' and 'sporting' refers to the 922r game for firearms imported during various periods as opposed to M1 Carbines.

But where is the line? If I take a Mauser action from 1908 and build a completely new rifle in .308 with a modern synthetic sniper stock is it still a C&R? Probably not.

Point is, there are lots of opinions on the internet and not much in the way of written evidence clarifying exactly where a C&R loses its status.

When this question is asked on Gunboards you get a variety of answers and no definitive one.

[gamename]

No, if you modify the gun in a "non sporting" manner it loses its C&R status. Such as adding a flash hider or thumbhole stock (not taking into account SB23.)

Yes, that's what I understood from CA DOJ when I talked to Brent there. If you add a fancy new stock with, say, a pistol grip, then its no longer C&R. And, the original paratrooper version with the folding stock is also considered non-C&R.

[TonyNorCal]

I believe Brent to be in error.

And, this wouldn't be terribly surprising. C&R designation is a Federal issue and the DOJ deals in State law.

An original paratrooper version of an M1 Carbine is most certainly a C&R. Regretfully, it's not legal for purchase in California, but that is due to violation of state assault weapons characteristics law (12276.1) and not because it isn't a C&R. A para M1 was issued with a folding stock and is both in original military configuration AND is greater than 50 years. So it's C&R on more than count.

A rifle doesn't need to be in a sporting configuration to be a C&R (although most C&Rs are). If the rifle originally came in a non-sporting configuration than that's the configuration it qualifies under.

Think of C&Rs and California law this way...

~>The Feds determine what is and isn't C&R. The state doesn't. The Feds declare anything greater than 50 years to be C&R. Additionally they list a number of other rifles which are less than 50 years (Yugo SKS variants for example).

~>California law then comes into play in filtering out or limiting what C&Rs one can buy. Section 12276.1 (the general assault weapons characteristics portion) of the penal code bands certain features (such as a pistol grip + detachable mag...hence Para M1 is banned via state law). California uses the same definition of C&Rs as the Feds do. If the Feds say it's a C&R, so does California. However, California requires all handguns of any vintage and all long guns of 50 years or less to be DROSd. This applies to everyone....both C&R holders and those without.

-So, after the dust of California law clears a C&R holder is able to order long guns of greater than 50 years and that are 12276.1 compliant.

-Anyone who can legally own a gun in California can buy a greater than 50 year old long gun from another California resident with no DROS. C&R holders have the advantage of being able to order from out of state/dealers (something non-holders can't do).

-California does allow someone who holds a C&R and a state issued Certificate of Eligibility (COE) to cash and carry ANY 12276.1 compliant C&R firearm from a California dealers inventory. DROS is still completed and fees paid, but you leave the same day with the gun. This exemption applies only to firearms purchased from a California dealer. It doesn't apply to firearms coming from out of state or from a private party.

So back to the M1 Para carbine....

-An original M1 Para is a C&R and isn't legal in California due to state law.

-A USGI M1 carbine in a repro para stock might be a C&R and might not...depends on who you ask. As I said in my other post, Fulton sells completely rebuilt Garands in a caliber they were never issued to C&R holders. Someone else could say that the repro stock is still consistent with military configuration. You'd get lots of opinions here for and against and nothing written from the ATF.

-And then there's the extreme example...how about a USGI M1 carbine receiver that has been rebarreled to 5.7mm Spitfire...and placed in a modern synthetic pistol grip stock? Well, the ATF's inaction on Fulton's public rechambering would lead one to believe that the caliber isn't relevant. And the stock? Well, depends again who you ask. The problem is that the ATF doesn't spell it out. Some will say as long as the receiver is 50+ years old it's all good. And others will take a much harder line. I'm not sure I would consider this one a C&R.

Like I said in my other post...this is hardly a definitive area..

[chiefcrash]

as if we didn't confuse you enough:

you can write to the ATF, and they will tell you