how about an all-in-one muzzleloader cartridge?

[Big Chudungus]

I'm thinking it would come with water resistance pork grease paper casing and you'd tear off a tab on the back which would expose a solid friction primer (similar to matchhead stuff), then you'd push the entire unit down the barrel where it would bottom out with slight friction fit.

You'd need to pull back the hammer/firing pin before hand, which would be somewhat of a safety issue, so maybe your ram rod should have an offset handle on the end so your hand isn't in front of the barrel when loading.

Then to fire the hammer/pin would slam into the primer when trigger is pulled.

I've seen some new Nitro system where the charge is loaded from rear and bullet from front, but seems that isn't a legal mussle loader in some states.

I've seen new "Desperado" pistol shotgun mussle loaders but can't find any pics of right angle but its also a brake action and I'm guessing you must insert metallic primer button, then do normal mussle load with powder, then ball and its napkin.

I'm sure lots of people have tried to do some sort of major upgrade to standard muzzle loaders, and I'm not sure if my idea would be compatible with any existing guns. IIRC old muzzle loaders involved a bit of powder primer added each shot at some external "pan" by the hammer. I guess I could include a small blister of right sort of primer powder or maybe a paste if that would work better, and the bottom of the all-in-one would be flash-paper.

I also mean like "store bought", so they'd also come in little tubes or you'd carry them on a bandoleer with a row of metal tubes with caps. Might also be a safety issue for shipping, but I guess they ship cardboard boxes of gunpowder.

[ldsnet]

Don't see how you could ensure the primer would sit precisely in front of the firing pin hole without being a complete disk, then after the bang, how does the disk get out of the barrel being its behind the explosion?

2nd problem is unloading? With a percussion cap muzzle loader, you can pull the cap and its relatively safe to dig the charge out...How do you plan to accomplish this task with a live primer in the bottom of the breech?

[Big Chudungus]

Don't see how you could ensure the primer would sit precisely in front of the firing pin hole without being a complete disk, then after the bang, how does the disk get out of the barrel being its behind the explosion?

2nd problem is unloading? With a percussion cap muzzle loader, you can pull the cap and its relatively safe to dig the charge out...How do you plan to accomplish this task with a live primer in the bottom of the breech?

I'm thinking it would be a disk of primer/matchhead material which would be glued to inside of consumable paper powder wrapper, so after firing there would be nothing left. If the bore is 1/2" then I think about 1/4" disk could be big enough to be centered over a firing pin.

As far as digging out a charge that didn't fire or you changed your mind, like if you were all loaded to hunt deer but they had other ideas and its time to head to supermarket instead....I guess you could wet the charge with water through the firing pin hole or if its flinklock through the Communication Hole.

[RNE228]

Take a look at the Civil War era paper cartridges. It's not the same as your idea, but is a step in that direction. The Minie ball loads allowed rapid fire, with an accurate and devastating bullet compare to the classic patched round ball muzzle loader loads.

https://www.thejeffersonarsenal.com/product-page/cartridge-kit-58cal-minie-20rds

https://youtube.com/shorts/otzr3Eu6o_I?si=R1Lh1n7HT6xkQPN9

[Big Chudungus]

Still way to many steps IMO. Question is "is there a paper that could be fully consumable and not create a danger of burning embers to touch off next load?"

I hear it was very strict drill to always return the ram-rod because if you lose the rod then all you've got is a not very good club. First thing I'd do is have a rod I'd use most of the time, maybe with a hook, which could be shoved or hung off belt quickly, then keep factory rod in the the gun as backup.

[2761377]

what are you trying to achieve? it's not clear to me.

fyi a "friction fit" paper cartridge would be unusable after 2 or 3 rounds fired, if you're using black powder.

[Big Chudungus]

what are you trying to achieve? it's not clear to me.

fyi a "friction fit" paper cartridge would be unusable after 2 or 3 rounds fired, if you're using black powder.

Not sure what I'm after, but....

Black Powder is not even considered guns by our friends in Govt (not sure about details, and I'm guessing they are if you are prohibited person, but IDK).
Not even sure if muzzle loader = BP = non-gun in eyes of law.
But I guess I'd be interested in making these "non-guns" bit more user friendly.
This would be for revolvers and hunting rifles and shotguns, and derringer shotguns.

There is some Prior Art in Consumable case cartridge. https://patents.justia.com/patent/4759885 Something about primer adjacent to bullet and expelled with bullet. No idea WTF that would look like. But claim was case would burn up completely and not be a problem. I'm thinking similar could be done with some sort of flash paper, but using existing muzzle loader ignition methods (flintlock and cap/pin).

I think a fire cap and pin system such as used on revolvers could be converted to existing pin, which in turn hits firing pin (which rides in the drop in conversion cap replacement), and that pin hits the disk described here.

"I'm thinking it would be a disk of primer/matchhead material which would be glued to inside of consumable paper powder wrapper, so after firing there would be nothing left. If the bore is 1/2" then I think about 1/4" disk could be big enough to be centered over a firing pin."

Advantage of this would be you'd have a non-gun revolver that can be fairly quickly reloaded by just pushing fresh cartridges into cylinder, and if they were right length you could seat them with finger tip, no plunger required.

[2761377]

thanks for the reply-

current enforcement of "non-gun" regulations by ATF allows rifles on the Sharps 1852/59/63 pattern which are breechloaders that can use consumable paper cartridges. this would be the best long gun platform for your intentions. it is very little trouble to seat a musket cap after loading the cartridge; no need for a primer in the cartridge.

as for revolvers, the use of a "plunger" is pretty much required for safety. one of the issues using paper cartridges, which really means loose powder, is chain fire. where the discharge of the chamber in battery causes adjacent chambers to fire. this is commonly caused by the flash migrating through the front of the adjacent chambers past the projectile to the powder. to prevent this the projectiles in the adjacent chambers must seal the projectile by a tight fit. we like to see a complete ring of lead left behind on the chamber mouth after seating the bullet. this way we are confident the powder is sealed in the chamber.

in both cases, rifle and pistol, a cap on a nipple is the best way to seal the chamber and prevent gas from escaping.

hth

[smle-man]

Still way to many steps IMO. Question is "is there a paper that could be fully consumable and not create a danger of burning embers to touch off next load?"

I hear it was very strict drill to always return the ram-rod because if you lose the rod then all you've got is a not very good club. First thing I'd do is have a rod I'd use most of the time, maybe with a hook, which could be shoved or hung off belt quickly, then keep factory rod in the the gun as backup.

Apparently numerous rods got shot down range during the civil war by frantic soldiers under pressure.

[Quiet]

Not sure what I'm after, but....

Black Powder is not even considered guns by our friends in Govt (not sure about details, and I'm guessing they are if you are prohibited person, but IDK).
Not even sure if muzzle loader = BP = non-gun in eyes of law.
But I guess I'd be interested in making these "non-guns" bit more user friendly.
This would be for revolvers and hunting rifles and shotguns, and derringer shotguns.

Under CA laws...

They are legally considered "firearms", because they are devices that discharges a projectile through the use of an explosion or other form of combustion. [PC 16520(a)]

Blackpowder muzzle loading firearms that meet the Federal definition of an "antique firearm" also meets the CA definition of an "antique firearm". [PC 16170(b)]

Antique firearms are granted specific exemptions to some CA firearm laws. [PC 16520(d)]

"Antique firearms" [PC 16170(b)] are only exempt from the following CA firearm laws:
01. Infrequent transfers. [PC 16520(d)(1)]
02. CA DROS. [PC 16520(d)(2)]
03. Operation of law transfers. [PC 16520(d)(3)]
04. "used firearm" transfer laws. [PC 16520(d)(4)]
05. Unloaded handgun open carry laws. [PC 16520(d)(5)]
06. Unloaded long gun open carry laws. [PC 16520(d)(6)]
07. Requirement to be a CA FFL dealer in order to transfer it. [PC 16520(d)(7)]
08. CA FFL dealer requirements when transferring firearms. [PC 16520(d)(8)]
09. Required minimum age of 21 for a dealer to transfer to. [PC 16520(d)(9)]
10. Required identifying marks/engravings on handguns. [PC 16520(d)(10)]
11. 10 day waiting period. [PC 16520(d)(11)]
12. PPT requirement to transfer through CA FFL dealer. [PC 16520(d)(12)]
13. Registration requirement for importing into CA and requirement to use CA FFL dealer to legally import into CA. [PC 16520(d)(13)]
14. Requirement to be licensed as a manufacturer in order to legally make in CA. [PC 16520(d)(14)]
15. Residential firearm storage requirements for prohibited persons. [PC 16520(d)(15)]
16. Manufacturing licensing, marking, and registration requirements. [PC 16520(d)(16)(17)]

In addition to the above, specific types of "antique firearms" [PC 16170(c)] are also exempt from these additional CA firearm laws: [PC 17700]
01. Camouflaging firearm container laws.
02. Cane gun laws.
03. Unrecognizable firearm laws.
04. Short Barrel Rifle laws.
05. Short Barrel Shotgun laws.
06. Unconventional pistol laws.
07. Undetectable firearm laws.
08. Wallet gun laws.
09. Zip gun laws.

Note that there are no exemptions for transferring to prohibited persons or to transferring to minors.
Which means it is illegal (felony) to transfer (selling/giving/etc) an antique firearm to a prohibited person [PC 27500] or to transfer an antique firearm that is also a "handgun" to a minor [PC 27510(a)].



Penal Code 16170
(a) As used in Sections 30515 and 30530, "antique firearm" means any firearm manufactured before January 1, 1899.
(b) As used in Section 16520, Section 16650, subdivision (a) of Section 23630, paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 27505, and subdivision (a) of Section 31615, "antique firearm" has the same meaning as in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(c) As used in Sections 16531 and 17700, "antique firearm" means either of the following:
(1) Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before the year 1898. This type of firearm includes any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
(2) Any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before the year 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

18 USC 921
(a) As used in this chapter -
(16) The term "antique firearm" means -
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica -
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

Penal Code 16520
(a) As used in this part, "firearm" means a device, designed to be used as a weapon, from which is expelled through a barrel, a projectile by the force of an explosion or other form of combustion.
(d) As used in the following provisions, "firearm" does not include an unloaded antique firearm:
(1) Section 16730.
(2) Section 16550.
(3) Section 16960.
(4) Section 17310.
(5) Subdivision (b) of Section 23920.
(6) Section 25135.
(7) Chapter 6 (commencing with Section 26350) of Division 5 of Title 4.
(8) Chapter 7 (commencing with Section 26400) of Division 5 of Title 4.
(9) Sections 26500 to 26588, inclusive.
(10) Sections 26700 to 26915, inclusive.
(11) Section 27510.
(12) Section 27530.
(13) Section 27540.
(14) Section 27545.
(15) Sections 27555 to 27585, inclusive.
(16) Sections 29010 to 29150, inclusive.
(17) Section 29180.