How old does a firearm have to be before it is FFL exempt?

[Rumblemonkey]

I was given an old rifle, circa 1867 and was told that it does not need to be FFL transferred as it is pre- 1899. Is this accurate? I used the search forum mode and found nothing regarding this. Thanks in advance!

[operavoice]

You're fine.
Pre 1899.
If it was manufactured 1898 or earlier, no FFL is required as it is an antique.
Even in California.

[MajorSideburns]

That is correct.

[The Gleam]

And not solely based on age....

26 U.S.C. $ 5845(G)

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term "Antique Firearms" means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...itions-antique

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[edgerly779]

Gleam nailed it

[Nardo1895]

And not solely based on age....

26 U.S.C. $ 5845(G)

For the purposes of the National Firearms Act, the term "Antique Firearms" means any firearm not intended or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearm...itions-antique

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The conclusion is right but the reference is off. Gleam listed the NFA definition of an Antique. NFA (National Firearms Act) only applies to certain firearms like machine guns, short barreled rifles, destructive devices, etc. The appropriate reference should be the GCA (Gun Control Act) definition of an antique which applies to "normal" firearms. The definitions are very similar but there are subtitle differences. Under NFA, an antique must be made prior to 1899 AND use ammunition not currently available. Under GCA, it just has to be made prior to 1899. Ammunition doesn't matter (except for replicas).

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions-0

Some gunshops get this wrong and use the NFA definition.

In any case, most muzzle loaders, including replicas, are Antique and a rifle made in 1867 is certainly Antique regardless of ignition system.

[The Gleam]

The conclusion is right but the reference is off. Gleam listed the NFA definition of an Antique. NFA (National Firearms Act) only applies to certain firearms like machine guns, short barreled rifles, destructive devices, etc. The appropriate reference should be the GCA (Gun Control Act) definition of an antique which applies to "normal" firearms. The definitions are very similar but there are subtitle differences. Under NFA, an antique must be made prior to 1899 AND use ammunition not currently available. Under GCA, it just has to be made prior to 1899. Ammunition doesn't matter (except for replicas).

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-ammunition-gun-control-act-definitions-0

Some gunshops get this wrong and use the NFA definition.

In any case, most muzzle loaders, including replicas, are Antique and a rifle made in 1867 is certainly Antique regardless of ignition system.

Good catch: not sure why their site took me to the NFA section when I went to pull that info. Weird. Especially as I was really just trying to express it includes replicas too, so not solely about age.

Maybe they are getting increased NFA questions traffic over the Larry Vickers deal, so it defaulted to that page!

Regardless, makes me wonder if that is why many FFLs get it wrong, that they get led to the wrong page as well.

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[Spaffo]

Several online sources quote the NFA definition in error, instead of the correct definition, leading to gun store FUD.

[Rumblemonkey]

Thanks gents, regardless, I am doing a breech casting soon to determine ammo. NFA, GCA, thanks for knowing all these rules/laws/acts. I certainly would not consider this Remington rolling block "normal", but clearly, I know nothing! I attended a gun show in San Diego over the weekend, and a vendor told me the antiques he was selling could be purchased and walked out with, as they were antiques also. Some cool double barreled shotguns and wild looking pistols. I gotta learn more...Thanks again!

[Quiet]

Under CA laws...

An "antique firearm" is still considered a firearm.

However, because of it's "antique" status it is granted specific exemptions to CA firearm laws.

In order for the "antique firearm" to be exempt from CA's requirement that firearms be transferred through a CA FFL dealer [PC 16520(d)(12)], the "antique firearm" must meet the Federal definitions of an "antique firearm" as defined in 18 USC 921(a)(16) and 18 USC 921(a)(16) has three definitions (the firearm has to meet one of the three definitions to be considered an "antique firearm") [PC 16170(b)].



Under CA laws...

"Antique firearms" [PC 16170(b)] are only exempt from the following CA firearm laws:
01. Infreqent transfers. [PC 16520(d)(1)]
02. CA DROS. [PC 16520(d)(2)]
03. Operation of law transfers. [PC 16520(d)(3)]
04. "used firearm" transfer laws. [PC 16520(d)(4)]
05. Unloaded handgun open carry laws. [PC 16520(d)(5)]
06. Unloaded long gun open carry laws. [PC 16520(d)(6)]
07. Requirement to be a CA FFL dealer in order to transfer it. [PC 16520(d)(7)]
08. CA FFL dealer requirements when transferring firearms. [PC 16520(d)(8)]
09. Required minimum age of 21 to be transferred to. [PC 16520(d)(9)]
10. Required identifying marks/engravings on handguns. [PC 16520(d)(10)]
11. 10 day waiting period. [PC 16520(d)(11)]
12. PPT requirement to transfer through CA FFL dealer. [PC 16520(d)(12)]
13. Registration requirement for importing into CA and requirement to use CA FFL dealer to legally import into CA. [PC 16520(d)(13)]
14. Requirement to be licensed as a manufacturer in order to legally make in CA. [PC 16520(d)(14)]
15. Residential firearm storage requirements. [PC 16520(d)(15)]
16. "home built firearm" marking/engraving and registration requirements. [PC 16520(d)(16)]

In addition to the above, specific types of "antique firearms" [PC 16170(c)] are also exempt from these additional CA firearm laws: [PC 17700]
01. Camouflaging firearm container laws.
02. Cane gun laws.
03. Unrecognizable firearm laws.
04. Short Barrel Rifle laws.
05. Short Barrel Shotgun laws.
06. Unconventional pistol laws.
07. Undetectable firearm laws.
08. Wallet gun laws.
09. Zip gun laws.


Penal Code 16170
(a) As used in Sections 30515 and 30530, "antique firearm" means any firearm manufactured before January 1, 1899.
(b) As used in Section 16520, Section 16650, subdivision (a) of Section 23630, paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 27505, and subdivision (a) of Section 31615, "antique firearm" has the same meaning as in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(c) As used in Sections 16531 and 17700, "antique firearm" means either of the following:
(1) Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before the year 1898. This type of firearm includes any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
(2) Any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before the year 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

18 USC 921
(a) As used in this chapter-
(16) The term "antique firearm" means-
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica-
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

[Nardo1895]

Quiet, that is a great compilation of CA regs on Antiques.

There is a lot there, but when you distill it down I think CA basically follows the Federal GCA definition for most arms and NFA for odd stuff. The part that is a little confusing to me is:

As used in Sections 16531 and 17700, "antique firearm" means either of the following:
(1) Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before the year 1898. This type of firearm includes any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
(2) Any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before the year 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

This appears to support "made before 1899" AND "uses ammunition no longer commonly available". But 16531 only applies to precursor parts:

16531. (a) ?Firearm precursor part? means any forging, casting, printing, extrusion, machined body or similar article that has reached a stage in manufacture where it may readily be completed, assembled or converted to be used as the frame or receiver of a functional firearm, or that is marketed or sold to the public to become or be used as the frame or receiver of a functional firearm once completed, assembled or converted.

(b) The Department of Justice, consistent with this section, shall provide written guidance and pictorial diagrams demonstrating examples of firearm precursor parts.

(c) Firearm parts that can only be used on antique firearms, as defined in subdivision (c) of Section 16170, are not firearm precursor parts.

and 17700 only applies to:

01. Camouflaging firearm container laws.
02. Cane gun laws.
03. Unrecognizable firearm laws.
04. Short Barrel Rifle laws.
05. Short Barrel Shotgun laws.
06. Unconventional pistol laws.
07. Undetectable firearm laws.
08. Wallet gun laws.
09. Zip gun laws.

Have I got that right?

[Quiet]

Quiet, that is a great compilation of CA regs on Antiques.

There is a lot there, but when you distill it down I think CA basically follows the Federal GCA definition for most arms and NFA for odd stuff. The part that is a little confusing to me is:

As used in Sections 16531 and 17700, "antique firearm" means either of the following:
(1) Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before the year 1898. This type of firearm includes any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
(2) Any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before the year 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

This appears to support "made before 1899" AND "uses ammunition no longer commonly available". But 16531 only applies to precursor parts:

16531. (a) ?Firearm precursor part? means any forging, casting, printing, extrusion, machined body or similar article that has reached a stage in manufacture where it may readily be completed, assembled or converted to be used as the frame or receiver of a functional firearm, or that is marketed or sold to the public to become or be used as the frame or receiver of a functional firearm once completed, assembled or converted.

(b) The Department of Justice, consistent with this section, shall provide written guidance and pictorial diagrams demonstrating examples of firearm precursor parts.

(c) Firearm parts that can only be used on antique firearms, as defined in subdivision (c) of Section 16170, are not firearm precursor parts.

and 17700 only applies to:

01. Camouflaging firearm container laws.
02. Cane gun laws.
03. Unrecognizable firearm laws.
04. Short Barrel Rifle laws.
05. Short Barrel Shotgun laws.
06. Unconventional pistol laws.
07. Undetectable firearm laws.
08. Wallet gun laws.
09. Zip gun laws.

Have I got that right?

In order to determine if the antique firearm is exempt from CA firearm precursor parts laws [PC 16531] and CA generally prohibited weapons laws [PC 17700], the antique firearm must meet one of the two definitions stated in PC 16170(c).

If the antique firearm does not meet either definitions stated in PC 16170(c), then it is not exempt from CA firearm precursor parts laws and CA generally prohibited weapons laws.

Which means...
Example #1.
~If you take an antique firearm (black powder percussion cap shotgun with a 10" barrel) and convert it to use shotgun shells, then the resulting firearm will no longer be exempt antique firearm and would be considered an illegal self-made short barrel shotgun.
Example #2.
~If you take an antique firearm (black powder percussion cap revolver that does not have the manufacturer's info + serial number engraved on it) and convert it to use metallic cartridges, then the resulting firearm will no longer be exempt antique firearm and would be considered an illegal self-made handgun.



Penal Code 16170
(c) As used in Sections 16531 and 17700, "antique firearm" means either of the following:
(1) Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before the year 1898. This type of firearm includes any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
(2) Any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before the year 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

[Nardo1895]

I don't know how widespread the interest is in this but I'd like to suggest that Quiet's summary of CA Antique regs become a sticky. Perhaps we could add the two Federal definitions as well. A lot of dealers get this wrong and insist on using the NFA definition for non-NFA firearms. Some I think is due to the obvious confusion and I suspect some is due to DOJ pressure or mis-information. The last time I attended one of DOJ's Dealer Webinars, the DOJ instructor got it wrong and basically used the NFA language. I talked with him after the webinar. After I sent him the GCA language he admitted I was right. I can't say for sure if his error was by design or just an honest mistake.