Got a call from BATFE today..

[DrewN]

And she was super,super nice. My 03 renewal kicked back because of an address change and she called to sort it. Her accent had me about ready to move to West Virginia.

[kris smith]

That?s good at least it was easy

[DrewN]

LOL, I about @#$% myself when I got the call. Figured whatever it was it probably wasn't good, but my fears appear to have been unfounded.

[kris smith]

I get those calls a lot from the automated system for the ffl break-in reports from my area and the first one I **** my self. But now I just hang up

[aghauler]

And she was super,super nice. My 03 renewal kicked back because of an address change and she called to sort it. Her accent had me about ready to move to West Virginia.

Well at least you got a renewal notice! I've renewed mine twice since moving to New Mexico, was due last year and never got a notice, so I just let it expire, figured I can always reapply and get a new number. I did get an in person audit once from BATF while in CA some years ago.

[Sig so sour of ca]

Well at least you got a renewal notice! I've renewed mine twice since moving to New Mexico, was due last year and never got a notice, so I just let it expire, figured I can always reapply and get a new number. I did get an in person audit once from BATF while in CA some years ago.

You had an in person audit for your 03 ffl c&r? Can you give some details if so. Your the first person I've actually heard of that happening to that isn't a friend of a friend situation.

[aghauler]

You had an in person audit for your 03 ffl c&r? Can you give some details if so. Your the first person I've actually heard of that happening to that isn't a friend of a friend situation.

Back in late 1990's or early 2000's BATF was auditing 03 FFLS cuz certain lowlifes were trying to buy and sell like a business but would not or could not get an 01 FFL. (At one time I had one of the only 2 or 3 01 FFLs in South Lake Tahoe)

I was in Tahoe got a phone call said a Field Agent would like to setup an in-person audit date. Knowing the regs state you can present your book at the office, I said I'd do that. BATF said "NO it will be an in person at your residence on your 03 FFL, no option for an office visit, regardless of Regs. So, I said OK and set the date. I reviewed my book and made sure everything I had acquired or disposed of since getting the 03 FFL was recorded, properly. I did own some C&R's before I got the 03 FFL so they were not in the A&D book, and didn't need to be.
The day arrives and I have my collection laid out in the living room and my BOOK on the kitchen table. Agent arrives, we sit at the table he gives me a "canned" speech, during which I had to correct him on several points, can't remember them now. He called his supervisor in Sacto told him what I had said, the Super told him "The man is correct!" (2 points fer me!) Then we look over my book, and then move to the living room where everything is laid out, we go through the book and confirm serial numbers, and firearms that were still in my possession. Everything check out fine. His only recommendation was to make a list of ALL firearms I owned prior to getting the 03 because at some point they may become C&R's. His parting words?
"You certainly know more about the C&R Regs than I do, thanks for clarifying them for me and DON'T expect me back anytime soon!" There have been a couple others that have been on Calguns awhile that were audited also. I haven't heard of any audits in the past 10 years or so. But they can happen so keep your paperwork up to date!

[bwiese]

"I was in Tahoe got a phone call said a Field Agent would like to setup an in-person audit date. Knowing the regs state you can present your book at the office, I said I'd do that.

BATF said "NO it will be an in person at your residence on your 03 FFL, no option for an office visit, regardless of Regs."

Oh sweet jeeezus oh no oh no o no....

Correct answer: "I need to speak with my attorney; I was even willing to meet you at your office, my attorney's
office or a neutral site with my books as well as (unloaded, safe, cased) relevant firearms as regs provide.

You also do not have authority to not follow relevant Fed regulations."

If they arrive & insist on entry: "Please show me your warrant."

If they force without warrant, then you have protection.

NEVER EVER LET LE, esp Fed LE, in your home. PERIOD. You give up rights when you do
let them in. No attorney would have EVER told you to do this or comply.

Remember that when Feds want to get in your home, it's not necessarily what they tell you
it's for.

[aghauler]

Oh sweet jeeezus oh no oh no o no....

Correct answer: "I need to speak with my attorney; I was even willing to meet you at your office, my attorney's
office or a neutral site with my books as well as (unloaded, safe, cased) relevant firearms as regs provide.

You also do not have authority to not follow relevant Fed regulations."

If they arrive & insist on entry: "Please show me your warrant."

If they force without warrant, then you have protection.

NEVER EVER LET LE, esp Fed LE, in your home. PERIOD. You give up rights when you do
let them in. No attorney would have EVER told you to do this or comply.

Remember that when Feds want to get in your home, it's not necessarily what they tell you
it's for.

Well having my fingerprints and info in multiple data bases due to various licenses and certifications (Medical, DMV etc) I have nothing to hide, no need to play games to try and "prove a point". If I did have something to hide, then I would have played it the way you suggest, which would only heighten the response from ATF and they's have no issue getting warrants and playing that game, then your info gets noted to any LEO you may have an encounter with. Because I keep my data on the up and up every LEO encounter, I've had has always ended positively, no paperwork.
I'm comfortable with how I handled the situation and gave BATF a "Teachable Moment" that helped people he audited after our encounter.

[CalifEd]

Well having my fingerprints and info in multiple data bases due to various licenses and certifications (Medical, DMV etc) I have nothing to hide, no need to play games to try and "prove a point". If I did have something to hide, then I would have played it the way you suggest, which would only heighten the response from ATF and they's have no issue getting warrants and playing that game, then your info gets noted to any LEO you may have an encounter with. Because I keep my data on the up and up every LEO encounter, I've had has always ended positively, no paperwork.
I'm comfortable with how I handled the situation and gave BATF a "Teachable Moment" that helped people he audited after our encounter.

Just because you have nothing to hide does not mean they can ride roughshod over the rules and laws.
If they want to get formal, then you have to also.
However, most of the time it is a single agent that wants what he wants just because he wants it and either does not know the rules, or does not care about the rules.
It is up to all of us to exercise our rights or you will surely lose them, one little step at a time.

[aghauler]

Just because you have nothing to hide does not mean they can ride roughshod over the rules and laws.
If they want to get formal, then you have to also.
However, most of the time it is a single agent that wants what he wants just because he wants it and either does not know the rules, or does not care about the rules.
It is up to all of us to exercise our rights or you will surely lose them, one little step at a time.

Hardly roughshod, and nobody showed up unannounced although they do have that right. The person that took over my 01 FFL customers gets audited several times a year by CADOJ and the BATF, he works out of his garage and has been selling LOTS of guns since he took over. Never any issues and he always complies with DOJ and BATF, no problems.

If you have nothing to hide then there is no problem.

If you want to play the "I know my rights and get a Warrant" game BS go ahead, and wait for the 0330 No Knock (they might actually knock but it will be during the night!) entry from ATF, DOJ and Swat with the warrant YOU demanded.

Then they'll search your entire property take ALL of your firearms to confirm legal status, files, computers (to search for buying and selling contact activity), while doing that THEN they may also find something you'd prefer they didn't.
You'll play hell getting everything back, I know people that never got their items back from the evidence locker.

And you can employ a $400 per hour mouthpiece to plead your case if you plan the sue them. Good luck their lawyers are on salary anyway.

I prefer to have a nice friendly conversation at the kitchen table without the gamesmanship and BS, when it's not needed.

[sbo80]

If you have nothing to hide then there is no problem.

Sure you may have nothing to hide, but nobody is perfect, and everyone is at some risk of some stupid thing they didn't understand. No reason to expose yourself to that, unnecessarily. ESPECIALLY, since by your admittance, the investigator didn't even know all the laws himself. He already insisted on one thing that was wrong, it was crazy to just trust he wouldn't do other things wrong too. When you "corrected" him on other things, what if he didn't believe you and was one of those "I know the law, you don't" types? I'm glad that worked out for you, but it's bad bad bad advice to just tell others it's not a big deal. It is.

[aghauler]

Sure you may have nothing to hide, but nobody is perfect, and everyone is at some risk of some stupid thing they didn't understand. No reason to expose yourself to that, unnecessarily. ESPECIALLY, since by your admittance, the investigator didn't even know all the laws himself. He already insisted on one thing that was wrong, it was crazy to just trust he wouldn't do other things wrong too. When you "corrected" him on other things, what if he didn't believe you and was one of those "I know the law, you don't" types? I'm glad that worked out for you, but it's bad bad bad advice to just tell others it's not a big deal. It is.

Where in my commentary did I state, "it's no big deal"? I just explained in detail how it all went down (others at the time had the same experience), that the Agent CALLED his Supervisor (immediately) and confirmed my information was correct, etc.
I offered up my experience I don't profess to be a legal scholar (as others might) so I don't throw out legal advice that "could" alter someone else's outcome, everyone can make their own choice how to handle the situation.
I've gone nose to nose with a cop that accused me of lying, which I don't take kindly too. Thinking quickly, I produced evidence he was totally incorrect, and he apologized to me. So when I'm in the right I don't hold back even with LEO's.

[bwiese]

AgHauler -

When you let LE into your premises you surrender all sortsa things, including ability to defend against planted evidence and have a defense for something
illegal you might be doing/did without even knowing about it.

Period. NEVER LET LE ON PREMISES WITHOUT A WARRANT.

Remember they shot a mom with baby in her arms for 1" of shotgun barrel
and a bad date on a court summons.

[aghauler]

AgHauler -

When you let LE into your premises you surrender all sortsa things, including ability to defend against planted evidence and have a defense for something
illegal you might be doing/did without even knowing about it.

Period. NEVER LET LE ON PREMISES WITHOUT A WARRANT.

Remember they shot a mom with baby in her arms for 1" of shotgun barrel
and a bad date on a court summons.

LEO's are now being held responsible for "mistakes".

I know what my legal rights are, thanks. I even get to carry a loaded firearm in my vehicle now without a CCW! Probably 80% motorists or more in this state do take advantage of that law.

I was once "paranoid" when Kommiefornica passed the mag ban, and also required the registration of those nasty assault rifles. So I shipped my collector grade HiCaps I owned since 1970, out of state until I got moved out of state, I also put one of those Thordsen Stocks on an AR lower so didn't register it.
Finally moved out of state got my HiCaps back and removed the Thordsen Stock system (anybody wanna buy a Thorden?).

Also have a now built an H&R Retro M16a1 lower with GI M16a1 Upper now.

I've been behind bars picking up patients when in EMS, not a good feeling when the bars close behind you and you don't have the key to get out.

Also last 15 years was face to face with Cons from NV State Prison, some notorious killers and/or Gangbangers, so I worked with CO's from the prison a lot.
Had the "pleasure of the offer to be killed by some of the Cons I had to treat" usually just before we stuffed Tube down their throat and were place on my life support Vents.

So believe me I'm not going to do anything that even hints of bringing LEO to my door.

One of my Colleagues was a Fulltime CO at the Prison, so I received firsthand info on happenings (and where OJ was).

Planted evidence? Indeed. Yeah I know it has happened.

I've even had a CHP Commercial Officer crawl under my 18-wheeler during a Safety inspection when he red tagged my trailers (but allowed me to take the set back to the yard as long as it never came back on the road again so I could go home!) then but took off his pistol belt handed it to his partner, then crawled under my truck to help me adjust my slack Adjusters so I could leave and drive the 100 miles to get home.

Google "Trooper Gary Gifford", I was there on the Trauma team, took blood and brain matter in the face (from the holes in his forehead) when I tried to ventilate him, since that time my Karma has been exceptionally good with all LEO, CO, BATF (who I'd had numerous very informative and congenial phone calls with as an 01 & 03 FFL).

Thank you for your Sage advice.

My deepest condolences for living in such a state of Paranoia, I refuse to.