Are BP handguns exempt from July 1 microstamping?

[CharlesV]

Can BP handguns still be shipped, if even to an FFL? I admit to being confused about BP vs regular handguns sometimes.

[NapalmCheese]

Black powder guns are not firearms (until they are capped) and can be shipped directly to you with no need for an FFL.

[CharlesV]

Ok because im trying to buy right now and so far 3 dealers in a row say they are not allowed to ship to CA, even to an FFL. Before July 1, and I hadnt given any thought to microstamping, Taylors & Co said they would ship to an FFL and I asked why (then assumed their reason was that it was a handgun). After July 1, nobody seems willing so whats going on? I did think BP was exempt and has been. But now?

[NapalmCheese]

Ok because im trying to buy right now and so far 3 dealers in a row say they are not allowed to ship to CA, even to an FFL. Before July 1, and I hadnt given any thought to microstamping, Taylors & Co said they would ship to an FFL and I asked why (then assumed their reason was that it was a handgun). After July 1, nobody seems willing so whats going on? I did think BP was exempt and has been. But now?

California is stupid, people are scared, it's easier to not ship than it is to figure out if you CAN ship.

[CharlesV]

California is stupid, people are scared, it's easier to not ship than it is to figure out if you CAN ship.

You know, I wouldnt have posted if I didnt think we were past that. I DO understand a mix of reluctance for certain guns but BP was never on those lists and this hasnt been a problem. In my turndowns so far, nobody cites any reason. I was left to guess that July 1 must have had something to do with it because nothing else has changed, far as I know. Ok, I keep going and trying.

[Quiet]

Are BP handguns exempt from July 1 microstamping?

Can BP handguns still be shipped, if even to an FFL? I admit to being confused about BP vs regular handguns sometimes.

Blackpowder firearms meet CA's definition of a firearm. [PC 16520(a)]

Depending on the configuration/type, a blackpowder firearm can also meet CA's definition of an antique firearm. [PC 16170]

If it meets CA definition of an antique firearm, then it is granted exemptions to some CA firearm laws.

"Antique firearms" [PC 16170(b)] are only exempt from the following CA firearm laws:
01. Infreqent transfers. [PC 16520(d)(1)]
02. CA DROS. [PC 16520(d)(2)]
03. Operation of law transfers. [PC 16520(d)(3)]
04. "used firearm" transfer laws. [PC 16520(d)(4)]
05. Unloaded handgun open carry laws. [PC 16520(d)(5)]
06. Unloaded long gun open carry laws. [PC 16520(d)(6)]
07. Requirement to be a CA FFL dealer in order to transfer it. [PC 16520(d)(7)]
08. CA FFL dealer requirements when transferring firearms. [PC 16520(d)(8)]
09. Required minimum age to transfer. [PC 16520(d)(9)]
10. Required identifying marks/engravings on handguns. [PC 16520(d)(10)]
11. 10 day waiting period. [PC 16520(d)(11)]
12. PPT requirement to transfer through CA FFL dealer. [PC 16520(d)(12)]
13. Registration requirement for importing into CA and requirement to use CA FFL dealer to legally import into CA. [PC 16520(d)(13)]
14. Requirement to be licensed as a manufacturer in order to legally make in CA. [PC 16520(d)(14)]
15. Residential firearm storage requirements for prohibited persons. [PC 16520(d)(15)]
16. Self-made firearm marking/engraving and registration requirements. [PC 16520(d)(16)]

In addition to the above, specific types of "antique firearms" [PC 16170(c)] are also exempt from these additional CA firearm laws: [PC 17700]
01. Camouflaging firearm container laws.
02. Cane gun laws.
03. Unrecognizable firearm laws.
04. Short Barrel Rifle laws.
05. Short Barrel Shotgun laws.
06. Unconventional pistol laws.
07. Undetectable firearm laws.
08. Wallet gun laws.
09. Zip gun laws.

In addition to the above, even more specific types of antique firearms [PC 16170(a)] are exempt from the following CA firearm laws:
01. CA assault weapons laws.
02. CA .50BMG Rifle laws.


Note that there are no exemption to CA unsafe handgun laws for antique firearms and that the CA microstamping requirement only applies to semi-auto pistols.

Therefore...

If the blackpowder pistol you are wanting to acquire is not a semi-auto pistol, then CA microstamping requirements do not apply to it.

[CharlesV]

Quiet,

Thanks for that although the entirety of the post opens new discussion. Ok, since the gun in question is a replica 1858 Remington revolver microstamping wont be an issue and we can rest that.

Since in my reading that CA seems to follow Federal in regard to antiques, this gun qualifies as would muzzleloaders because of the ignition system of flintlock, matchlock, percussion and whatever else there was before 1898.

My OP posed whether microstamping effected a dealers ability to ship but it may have been other reasons like new July 1 or other new laws im unaware of. Surely by now the dealers know that BP is shippable and that nothing has changed? My frustration is that they must be operating under new, unknown laws. Or something. The gun is an antique by definition, no FFL, no baloney and thats it. They know this --- unless what? 1, 2, 3, 5 years ago, there was no problem. Now, suddenly a problem. What is it? Its not even about FFL, they just say, "Not for CA, bye," or it says so right in the item description.

[Quiet]

My OP posed whether microstamping effected a dealers ability to ship but it may have been other reasons like new July 1 or other new laws im unaware of. Surely by now the dealers know that BP is shippable and that nothing has changed? My frustration is that they must be operating under new, unknown laws. Or something. The gun is an antique by definition, no FFL, no baloney and thats it. They know this --- unless what? 1, 2, 3, 5 years ago, there was no problem. Now, suddenly a problem. What is it? Its not even about FFL, they just say, "Not for CA, bye," or it says so right in the item description.

There has been no changes to Federal or CA laws that legally prohibits a vendor from selling and shipping an antique firearm directly to a CA buyer.

IMO...
If an out-of-state vendor is refusing to sell/ship an antique firearm to a CA resident and are citing their reason for doing so as a "microstamping" or "ghost gun" requirement, then that vendor is simply using those buzzwords as an excuse to justify not doing any business with people in CA.

[CharlesV]

Quiet,

I hadnt considered that sellers might be looking for an excuse not to sell, now blaming law changes that never happened or lumping all firearms together in a pot because they are tired of the actual changes to law.

[19K]

Quiet,

I hadnt considered that sellers might be looking for an excuse not to sell, now blaming law changes that never happened or lumping all firearms together in a pot because they are tired of the actual changes to law.

[CharlesV]

Just now I got a reply from a shop that the problem is that an 1858 Remington isnt on the roster and thats why they cant ship. They scolded me for not knowing this. Good grief.

I replied with the CA and Fed law about Antiques and ignition systems, blah blah, lets see what they do next. I offered to let them send it to my FFL in the interests of peace which im sure my FFL wont take kindly.

And yes, i do the same, i ask before any Checkout anywhere. Once I got a reply, "As far as we know, we can ship. Why? Should we be worried about something? What is the specific problem we should be concerned about?" Then it snowballs.

[19K]

Just now I got a reply from a shop that the problem is that an 1858 Remington isnt on the roster and thats why they cant ship. They scolded me for not knowing this. Good grief.

I replied with the CA and Fed law about Antiques and ignition systems, blah blah, lets see what they do next. I offered to let them send it to my FFL in the interests of peace which im sure my FFL wont take kindly.

And yes, i do the same, i ask before any Checkout anywhere. Once I got a reply, "As far as we know, we can ship. Why? Should we be worried about something? What is the specific problem we should be concerned about?" Then it snowballs.

[Quiet]

Penal Code 32100
(a) Article 4 (commencing with Section 31900) and Article 5 (commencing with Section 32000) shall not apply to a single-action revolver that has at least a five-cartridge capacity with a barrel length of not less than three inches, and meets any of the following specifications:
(1) Was originally manufactured prior to 1900 and is a curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.
(2) Has an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of at least seven and one-half inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.

[CharlesV]

Quiet,

You forgot reproductions which mine is. The most concise law is in Calguns Foundation. I'll put the link and copy the law here.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php?title=Antique_Firearms

US law:
[USC 18, Sec. 921(a)(16)][2] reads:

The term "antique firearm" means -

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock,
flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system)
manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if
such replica -
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or
conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition
which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which
is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial
trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle
loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black
powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For
purposes of this subparagraph, the term "antique firearm" shall
not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or
receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading
weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily
converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt,
breechblock, or any combination thereof.

CA law:
Penal Code 16170

(a) As used in Sections 30515 and 30530, "antique firearm"
means any firearm manufactured before January 1, 1899.
(b) As used in Section 16520, Section 16650, subdivision (a) of
Section 23630, paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 27505, and
subdivision (a) of Section 31615, "antique firearm" has the same
meaning as in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States
Code.
(c) As used in Section 17700, "antique firearm" means either of
the following:
(1) Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or
conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and
manufactured in or before 1898. This includes any matchlock,
flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or
replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the
year 1898.
(2) Any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before
1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United
States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of
commercial trade.

I posted it for general readers interests, my own reference and what im going to send to dealers if they even care to receive it.

So, a dealers excuse not to ship to me or an FFL, citing microstamping, roster or anything else is BS. OR IS IT? Maybe they actually read the law and thats why they dont ship. Law says, antiques are not USC 18 firearms unless what? Unless youre a felon or other cant-possess. How would they know who is who? That would be a good reason not to ship to the door but not to an FFL. If you give them FFL info they would have to know you are a can-possess because the FFL would catch a felon otherwise, right? But that assumes some customized personal service from the dealer to sit down and think over each CA order and with the volumes these days, they figure they dont have to. Catch them when the recession deepens, when sales go to zilch and see how fast they want to help you.

[CharlesV]

Ok, here is the latest reply from the sketchy outfit, GunZoneDeals, for a 1858, single action repro BP revolver:

Help Desk Ticket #122982 (California) has been updated by Christina - GunZoneDeals. Action Taken: Public note added.

Content:

Hello,

We will ship this item to a FFL dealer only for the state of CA.

Please place the order if you are still interested and reply which dealer you would like to use so I can make the appropriate notes on my end!

The shipping lead time is 3 to 10 business days.

Thank you,

Christina
------------------------------
I'll write to my FFL and say there is an incoming soon and sorry for the inconvenience about something you should have nothing to do with.