C&R Handguns vs. CA "Safe List"

[5hundo]

What's the deal with this?

...because I'm hearing conflicting guidance.

Can you (being a California resident) buy a C&R listed handgun (as defined by the ATF's "Curios or Relics List"), even though its not on the California "safe list"?

Some say yes, some say no...

[jamesob]

yes

[5hundo]

yes

So, what is it then?

Just "FUD" on behalf of the stores that say they won't do it?

I've already talked to two stores that have refused to transfer Nagant Revolvers or Makarovs...

Hmmmm.....

[Heatseeker]

You still must transfer through a 01 FFL, but out of state C&Rs are importable for 03 holders.

I just learned this myself. I see lots of gunbroker and deep poverty on the horizon...

[5hundo]

You still must transfer through a 01 FFL, but out of state C&Rs are importable for 03 holders.

Yeah, but it's 01 FFLs that are telling me they won't do it...

I've already applied for my 03, so we'll see how quickly they can get that back to me but I've had two shops already tell me that they won't transfer anything that's not on the list...

One shop even interrupted me in mid question when I started to ask "What about C&R weapons" and said,

"If it's not on the list, we won't transfer it. Sorry."

[dfletcher]

Yeah, but it's 01 FFLs that are telling me they won't do it...

I've already applied for my 03, so we'll see how quickly they can get that back to me but I've had two shops already tell me that they won't transfer anything that's not on the list...

One shop even interrupted me in mid question when I started to ask "What about C&R weapons" and said,

"If it's not on the list, we won't transfer it. Sorry."

Then I guess he doesn't sell single action revolvers either - they are not on the list, but they are exempt. If he has a Ruger or Colt SA in his case, just for fun ask him to find it on the list. When he cannot, ask him how it is he can sell handguns that are not on the list. Was he wrong about not selling guns that are not on the list, or was he wrong about a gun needing to be on the list? BTW, this is probably the point at which he calls you a PITA and tells you to leave. Maybe do the Columbo routine - "Oh I'm sorry sir, just one more thing - I'm sorry to bother you but ...."

C & R handguns are exempt from roster certification requirements. Here's the link:http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12125.php

[ke6guj]

Here is the actual C&R exemption from the roster.

12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:
(3) Firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

[5hundo]

Then I guess he doesn't sell single action revolvers either - they are not on the list, but they are exempt. If he has a Ruger or Colt SA in his case, just for fun ask him to find it on the list. When he cannot, ask him how it is he can sell handguns that are not on the list. Was he wrong about not selling guns that are not on the list, or was he wrong about a gun needing to be on the list? BTW, this is probably the point at which he calls you a PITA and tells you to leave. Maybe do the Columbo routine - "Oh I'm sorry sir, just one more thing - I'm sorry to bother you but ...."

C & R handguns are exempt from roster certification requirements. Here's the link:http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/dwcl/12125.php

Hmmm....

They did have some single actions in there. I'll hit them with that the next time I hear that B.S. excuse. Thanks man!

[Nodda Duma]

If he still gives you grief, either have him call an out-of-state shop like J&G Sales who *does* know the truth, or find another shop. Tell him you'll support his store again when he stops supporting CA DOJ's lies and half-truths.

-Jason

[gun toting monkeyboy]

Screw it. Find a local transfering FFL, and leave the gun shops that are too stupid to know what they are doing to stew in their own juices. You'll probably get a better price for the transfer as well...

-Mb

[dustoff31]

Screw it. Find a local transfering FFL, and leave the gun shops that are too stupid to know what they are doing to stew in their own juices. You'll probably get a better price for the transfer as well...

-Mb

This.

[aerosick]

Here is the actual C&R exemption from the roster.

12125. (a) Commencing January 1, 2001, any person in this state who manufactures or causes to be manufactured, imports into the state for sale, keeps for sale, offers or exposes for sale, gives, or lends any unsafe handgun shall be punished by imprisonment in a county jail not exceeding one year.
(b) This section shall not apply to any of the following:
(3) Firearms listed as curios or relics, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

My research on C&R tells me that when a gun reaches 50 years old, it will not automatically be a C&R. To be a C&R you have to submit a written request to get it on the List:

Sec. 478.26 Curio and relic determination.

Any person who desires to obtain a determination whether a
particular firearm is a curio or relic shall submit a written request,
in duplicate, for a ruling thereon to the Director. Each such request
shall be executed under the penalties of perjury and shall contain a
complete and accurate description of the firearm, and such photographs,
diagrams, or drawings as may be necessary to enable the Director to make
a determination. The Director may require the submission of the firearm
for examination and evaluation. If the submission of the firearm is
impractical, the person requesting the determination shall so advise the
Director and designate the place where the firearm will be available for
examination and evaluation.

Is this why there are certain guns over 50 years old on the List?

Or am I out in Left Field again...

Billy

[ke6guj]

My research on C&R tells me that when a gun reaches 50 years old, it will not automatically be a C&R. To be a C&R you have to submit a written request to get it on the List:

once 50 years old, it is automatically C&R. ATF does not go back and specifically list every 50+ year old firearm, but it is considered C&R.

WHAT ARE CURIOS OR RELICS?
As set out in the regulations (27 CFR 478.11), curios or relics include firearms which are of special interest to collectors by reason of some quality other than is associated with firearms intended for sporting use or as offensive or defensive weapons. To be recognized as curios or relics, firearms must fall within one of the following categories:

1.) Firearms which were manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date, but not including replicas thereof

;
2.) Firearms which are certified by the curator of a municipal, State, or Federal museum which exhibits firearms to be curios or relics of museum interest; and
3.) Any other firearms which derive a substantial part of their monetary value from the fact that they are novel, rare, bizarre, or because of their association with some historical figure, period, or event. Proof of qualification of a particular firearm under this category may be established by evidence of present value and evidence that like firearms are not available except as collector’s items, or that the value of like firearms available in ordinary commercial channels is substantially less.

Is this why there are certain guns over 50 years old on the List?

Or am I out in Left Field again...

Billy

remember that the list started in 1968. There were items that were less than 50 years old at that point that were considered curios, so they were listed. Now that 40 years have past, those listed curios are now relics as well.

Is your FFL saying that it must be specifically listed in the C&R list, and that being 50-years old is not enough? I don't think any other FFL has taken that position.

[aerosick]

Is your FFL saying that it must be specifically listed in the C&R list, and that being 50-years old is not enough? I don't think any other FFL has taken that position.

Yes, maybe my small town FFL just doesn't want all the paperwork. He has a good business going without it I suppose.

It's his choice, right?

Also, why did CA SB 15 Exempt Handguns have to add "Also exempt are single-action revolvers... originally manufactured prior to 1900 and is a curio or relic...

Why did they need this in there if being over 50 years old is enough? It's a trick, right?

Very confusing to me!

Thanks,

Billy

[ke6guj]

Yes, maybe my small town FFL just doesn't want all the paperwork. He has a good business going without it I suppose.

It's his choice, right?

yup, his choice. He can refuse to transfer any firearm he is not comfortable.

Also, why did CA SB 15 Exempt Handguns have to add "Also exempt are single-action revolvers... originally manufactured prior to 1900 and is a curio or relic...

Why did they need this in there if being over 50 years old is enough? It's a trick, right?

Very confusing to me!

Thanks,

Billy

yup, there is some wierd language in there. That single action exemption language about pre-1900 C&R handguns only covers ONE year, 1899. 1898 and older is already exempt as an antique.

I'll see what else I can dig up.