Antique Firearm Transactions

[McNally M.]

Hey fellas, what is the CA-sanctioned process for going about purchasing and selling antique firearms (pre-1898)? Is it as simple as cash and carry between the two parties involved? Or is an FFL required within some capacity for private sales?

Are some firearms exempted from antique status for one reason or another, such as if they fire readily available ammunition? Thinking Mosin Nagants or early 7mm/8mm Mausers for example.

I've soaked up varying information from online resources, gun shop personnel, and other individuals who dabble in antiques. Would much appreciate any help in sorting out fact from fiction in this area.

[SkyHawk]

Anything made before 1899 is cash and carry, no FFL needed - caliber or cartridge type does not matter, handgun/long gun does not matter.

[Wheellock]

Here is the PC. I have taken it to mean anything 1898 or earlier.

16170. (a) As used in Sections 30515 and 30530, “antique firearm” means any firearm manufactured before January 1, 1899.
(b) As used in Section 16520, Section 16650, subdivision (a) of Section 23630, paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 27505, and subdivision (a) of Section 31615, “antique firearm” has the same meaning as in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(c) As used in Sections 16531 and 17700, “antique firearm” means either of the following:
(1) Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before the year 1898. This type of firearm includes any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
(2) Any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before the year 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
(Amended by Stats. 2019, Ch. 730, Sec. 1. (AB 879) Effective January 1, 2020.)

https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displayText.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&division=2.&title=1.&part=6.&chapter=&article=

[sass2924]

Per CA 16170. (a) As used in Sections 30515 and 30530, “antique firearm” means any firearm manufactured before January 1, 1899.
(b) As used in Section 16520, Section 16650, subdivision (a) of Section 23630, paragraph (1) of subdivision (b) of Section 27505, and subdivision (a) of Section 31615, “antique firearm” has the same meaning as in Section 921(a)(16) of Title 18 of the United States Code.
(c) As used in Sections 16531 and 17700, “antique firearm” means either of the following:
(1) Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before the year 1898. This type of firearm includes any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898.
(2) Any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before the year 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.
(Amended by Stats. 2019, Ch. 730, Sec. 1. (AB 879) Effective January 1, 2020.)

Federal and State laws differ on the definition of "Antique"

I would say 7.62x54r and 8mm are readily available

[Wheellock]

https://www.govinfo.gov/app/collection/uscode/2018/title26/subtitleE/chapter53

(g) Antique firearm
The term "antique firearm" means any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after the year 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade.

Side note, 26 U.S.C. is the tax code

[Wheellock]

Here, also, is the definition from 18 U.S.C . chapter 44 section 921

(16) The term “antique firearm” means—

(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or

(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica—

(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or

(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or


(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term “antique firearm” shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon which can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination thereof.

[Wheellock]

So, there are two definitions, depending on which penal code you are referencing. One includes fixed ammo, one doesn't. Depends on what you are doing.

The codes that include fixed ammo firearms older than 1898 are:
16531 - firearms precursor parts
17700 - generally prohibited weapons

Buy and sell to your hearts content or your wallet is empty.

[Wheellock]

Another fun side note, the tax code definition is different because that is part of the NFA; so you still can't cut the barrel down under SBR and SBS limits (16 and 18 inches respectively)

https://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearms-guides-importation-verification-firearms-national-firearms-act-definitions-antique

[Kyle1886]

The pic in my avatar is a Remington Rider Magazine (1871) pistol that takes .32 cal black power cartridges. I think the cartridges are rim fire but I forget at the moment. The cartridges are way to expensive for me to even consider as they are collectables too.

I've always considered it an antique. Yes? Maybe not from reading the above.

Respectfully
Kyle

[sass2924]

The pic in my avatar is a Remington Rider Magazine (1871) pistol that takes .32 cal black power cartridges. I think the cartridges are rim fire but I forget at the moment. The cartridges are way to expensive for me to even consider as they are collectables too.

I've always considered it an antique. Yes? Maybe not from reading the above.

Respectfully
Kyle

I would say it is considered an antique if it is rimfire.

[plumbum]

Random thought: what if a company started manufacturing new replica firearms in a caliber that was no longer produced? Say someone began cranking out Colt 1873’s or Remington Root revolvers in .44 Henry or .41 Short? Would they be considered “antique”?

[sass2924]

They would still be modern. Shiloh Sharps makes a repro of the 1874 Sharps. Many calibers they chamber are obsolete; 44-77, 44-90 etc. These have to go thru an ffl.

[McNally M.]

Hmm, so by this logic a pre-1898 rifle that shoots modern ammo is not granted antique status.

What's the situation, for example, here then:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/886120568

A 1896 dated M91. Seller claims antique status and therefore no FFL needed. Is he sorely mistaken because one can go to any gunshop today and pick up a box of 7.62x54r to throw down the pipe?

[870classic]

Hmm, so by this logic a pre-1898 rifle that shoots modern ammo is not granted antique status.

What's the situation, for example, here then:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/886120568

A 1896 dated M91. Seller claims antique status and therefore no FFL needed. Is he sorely mistaken because one can go to any gunshop today and pick up a box of 7.62x54r to throw down the pipe?

The ammunition is still readily available, so this could run afoul of the California law.

However, in this case, the seller is unwilling to ship to California, unless through an FFL.
...It also has no import marks anywhere on the firearm! Best of all, this rifle per ATF regs is considered an Antique Firearm and does NOT require any paperwork due to its age (receiver/barrel shank is marked 1896, has to be produced on or before 1898 to be considered as such!) so again, no 4473 needed so I can mail it direct to you without a FFL to any state except for CA, NY, HI or AK.

Best regards,
870classic.

[Flyin Brian]

Hmm, so by this logic a pre-1898 rifle that shoots modern ammo is not granted antique status.



What's the situation, for example, here then:

https://www.gunbroker.com/item/886120568

A 1896 dated M91. Seller claims antique status and therefore no FFL needed. Is he sorely mistaken because one can go to any gunshop today and pick up a box of 7.62x54r to throw down the pipe?

Your logic is not logical

Read it again and when you get to the "1898" in section A, that's where you stop. No need to go past because the "or" starts talking about replicas.

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