Black Powder vs Pyrodex

[CVShooter]

I'm still a newbie in the muzzleloading world. I got a good load running for my .50 Traditions Woodsman with Pyrodex and conicals. Accuracy is great at about 2" groups at 100 yards -- no complaints there. The Thor sized at .501 and 90 grains Pyrodex is going to be my primary hunting load, I think.

But I can barely keep the round balls inside of 6" at 50 yards. At 100 yards, I can't even reliably stay on paper. I've tried charges of Pyrodex of 70, 80 and 90 grains with the same results. I'm going to try some black powder next but am curious if anybody has had similar issues with Pyrodex and round ball. Are the two a difficult match-up?

[Tallship]

Pyrodex vs BP should have no effect on accuracy. It sounds like you have a patch problem. What type of patches are you using on the round balls? Either that or your round balls have a sprue and you're noy\t putting it flat side down.

[THBailey]

Your gun has a 1/48 twist. The PRB twist is usually 1/66. Try dropping your charge to 40 or 45 grains Pyro RS. Also can depend on land and groove dimensions, you may be skipping the rifling. What size ball? What patch material?

I had a .54 New Englander with the 1/48 shooting into a couple of inches with 100gr RS and the 435gr Maxi Ball. You wanted to be sure your fillings were firmly glued in when you touched this load off, but it sure dropped deer like they were hit with Thor's Hammer. I wanted a 50 yard PRB load with the same sight settings, so I dropped the powder charge down until I was hitting center and it was 42gr. An added bonus was it shot clover leafs.

[steamerjames]

Pyro. Will. NOT work w/Rb not enough pressure to get to burn. Works well in a 50/70 through.use the heavist bulletin you can find round balls too light

[otteray]

You can get 4 lbs of Graf & Sons black powder delivered, for $81, if you do decide to go that route.

[smle-man]

Pyro. Will. NOT work w/Rb not enough pressure to get to burn. Works well in a 50/70 through.use the heavist bulletin you can find round balls too light

Works just fine in my Ruger Old Army with .457 round ball. I use 30 gr equivalent pellets.

[CVShooter]

Ball is .490 for the lead and .487 for the ITX. Patches are .015, or so I was told. For lube, I used Bore Butter -- spread lightly by rubbing the patch around on itself. Lubed side went to the ball and the side facing the powder charge had just what soaked through. Can't say I know how to properly lube a patch or even if it matters.

The ITX is not a perfect sphere and is supposed to be aligned with the wider section parallel with the crown of the barrel, or so I remember. But the ITX and lead were behaving identically.

One recovered patch (from the first ball shot) was unburned in the center, had holes surrounding the center (presumably where the rifling was engaged), blackened marks extending from these holes to the edges, edges were tattered. I don't know how to post a picture from my phone but that's the best verbal description I can offer. Is this indicative anything?

[Unsilenced]

Definitely sounds like a problem either with the patching, or your gun just not having the right twist rate for balls, though that seems unlikely.

Do you have to use a starter when you put in the ball?

[THBailey]

This guy offers a pretty good explanation:

https://triblive.com/x/leadertimes/sports/s_534747.html

The ring around the ball with the ITX offering has me a little spooked about them. I don't see how you can get them leveled and centered in the bore. Lacking this you are throwing a knuckle ball.

Your lead balls should be doing better. They should be pure lead. If they have a hardening alloy they will not properly obturate to the bore (another issue with ITX). If you have the equipment try weighing them, they should all be within a few tenths of a grain of each other. If you have a caliper, just for grins check them for roundness. If you are using cast balls, load with the sprue up and centered in the bore.

Just a few thoughts, good luck.

[kendog4570]

THBaily is all over it. 48 twist is marginal for round balls with full charges. Slow them down and it will shoot/group better. I have an old Lyman Great Plains 54 with a 48 twist (thats all they came with in the beginning). 60 to 62 grains 3F and she shoots good enough to win many turkeys each year. Next barrel will be a 54 cal with 72 twist. Dont get too wrapped up in the patch or lube witchcraft. Keep it simple. If they are not cutting to shreds or burning through you are good. I use a .530 ball with .013 pillow ticking. Loads easy and shoots good enough to win a few matches and rendezvous. Three Rivers liquid patch lube. Cheep and a quart goes a long way. I shoot my gun a LOT and just last year opened up a second bottle of it. Bought the first bottle when my oldest was still in the oven. He just turned 29!

[Springfield45]

Sounds to me like you have a barrel twist made for conical bullets or sabots. It doesn't like the round balls. Your round balls should be pure lead of .490 or .495 caliber. If they are cast balls make sure the spur is always up. Speer makes good spur-less balls by the way. Patches should be .10 to .15 thousands and completely saturated with lube. My patches are wet during loading. Your lube serves two purposes for you; one makes the loading easier; and two cleans the barrel as you load the next round. Always center the ball on the pre-cut patches. You can also use a lubed patch cloth and cut the patch after you first seat the ball with a patch knife(this may help with accuracy). You want to use 60 to 65 grains of black powder/ Pyrodex for a .50 caliber ML. Any more than that is a waist of powder. Black powder is always better than any smokeless powder substitute. The ball should load some what hard but not hard enough to require hammering. Tamp the ball home at least three times or till the rod wants to bounce out of the barrel. Try to keep your loads consistent. You should bench rest and try different charges starting at 65 grains and go down by 5 grains per three shot strings till you find a load that patterns well for your rifle. My .54 Saint Louis Hawken's likes 60 grains of FFF black powder. Hope this helps and Good luck.

[AR22]

I do not know so much about modern made BP stuff. But I do know BP is best in my original antiques I shoot. Even in Cartridge BP Guns I reload for.

It just seems to be what it is suppose to use, and accuracy is always better with real black for me anyway. I hate Pryrodex, just as corrosive, if not more so than real black. And I found Pyrodex harder to clean up also.

Problem is getting the real Black. I can buy it locally. Makes using it much more convenient. Just lucky there. Many do not have that option unfortunately.

[CVShooter]

Sounds like I should start by getting some real BP. I was told that 90 gr Goex FFg shot round ball well out of this rifle so it seems like a good place to start. If I can't get that to work, I'll drop down to 60 grains Pyrodex and start working my way up from there. For now, I can get both at the same store. But I always like to have alternatives.

Thank you all for the input.

[kendog4570]

... I was told that 90 gr Goex FFg shot round ball well out of this rifle so it seems like a good place to start.....

If you like throwing 30 grains of powder away with each shot. A 48 twist is a "happy medium" twist meant to give OK performance with round balls and REAL's or Maxi's in production/package store guns. Just OK. Proper round ball twist rates for any cal BP rifle fall between 66 and 80, or thereabouts. Maxis, sabots and REAL's like twists in the 20's. If you want to push round balls hard, you will need a slower twist. If you want it to group better, slow them down.

[THBailey]

If you like throwing 30 grains of powder away with each shot. A 48 twist is a "happy medium" twist meant to give OK performance with round balls and REAL's or Maxi's in production/package store guns. Just OK. Proper round ball twist rates for any cal BP rifle fall between 66 and 80, or thereabouts. Maxis, sabots and REAL's like twists in the 20's. If you want to push round balls hard, you will need a slower twist. If you want it to group better, slow them down.

X2!