FFL03 and CFLD

[Macalroy38]

Hey guys,

I need some clarification. I'm looking to buy a C&R shotgun and naturally because I have to ask before I buy anything I have to ask if they'll ship to CA. the seller said yes but is asking for my FFL03 and CFLD information. To my knowledge, an FFL03 isn't considered a dealer and doesn't have to be on the list. Am I wrong?

[edgerly779]

CLFC Maybe

[CGZ]

It should be just C&R and COE

[jemswirl]

Law changed in 2014 FFL03 cannot have C&R long guns shipped to them from outside Kali. Inside Kali yes, handgun no and must use FFL01 for transfer.

[firefly416]

Law changed in 2014 FFL03 cannot have C&R long guns shipped to them from outside Kali. Inside Kali yes, handgun no and must use FFL01 for transfer.

Source? Because the information I have seen (https://www.empirearms.com/cal-ffl.htm) says a CA 03FFL+CoE can definitely still have C&R long guns shipped to them from out-of-state.

[Bobby Ricigliano]

The seller is most likely a dealer and is asking for the CFLC number from the FFL who he is sending it to. FFL03 holder does not have that. Thus it will have to go to a dealer, with the one silver lining that you should be able to DROS and go after it arrives, assuming valid 03 and COE.

[SkyHawk]

Source? Because the information I have seen (https://www.empirearms.com/cal-ffl.htm) says a CA 03FFL+CoE can definitely still have C&R long guns shipped to them from out-of-state.

It has been debated rigorously here. Our source is the penal codes of California, not random out of state dealer websites.

Half the camp is of the opinion that 'it is not allowed', and the other half sees it another way. Similarly, some out of state sellers read it one way, and some the other way.

A verbatim reading of the relative statutes would seem to say it is not allowed, specifically PC27585 and PC27565. Further damning is that the exemption for import by mail WAS specifically in the original bill for 27585, but did not make the final cut that was signed into law. It was redlined out.

The only exemption for PC27585 that applies to C&R folks says you must take actual possession out of state and then transport it in.

The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=27585.&lawCode=PEN

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?sectionNum=27565.&lawCode=PEN

At least that is the way I read it. If you want to make an argument otherwise, cite the relative penal codes and state your reasoning. It will go into the archive of arguments.

[Milsurp1]

As much as I would like the law to be otherwise, all C&R shipments coming into California via mail, FedEx, etc have to be delivered to a type 1/7 FFL. If seller is in Arizona you could drive there, buy it in person, bring it back physically, then send in the BOF form with your C&R and COE numbers.

[firefly416]

It has been debated rigorously here. Our source is the penal codes of California, not random out of state dealer websites.

Half the camp is of the opinion that 'it is not allowed', and the other half sees it another way.

Okay, can you provide the applicable penal codes? Has anyone tried to buy a C&R from gunbroker and what was the result?

As much as I would like the law to be otherwise, all C&R shipments coming into California via mail, FedEx, etc have to be delivered to a type 1/7 FFL. If seller is in Arizona you could drive there, buy it in person, bring it back physically, then send in the BOF form with your C&R and COE numbers.

Source of your determination of this? I am well aware that if I purchase the item in person and bring it back myself that is okay with submission of applicable forms and fees.

[Sousuke]

Okay, can you provide the applicable penal codes? Has anyone tried to buy a C&R from gunbroker and what was the result?



Source of your determination of this? I am well aware that if I purchase the item in person and bring it back myself that is okay with submission of applicable forms and fees.

This thread has a few sources:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=1118049&highlight=curio+relic+ship+state

As to if you can do it, yes - people have posted that they successfully reported the firearms once they received them with no knocks on the door(that doesn't make it legal, however.)

[SkyHawk]

Okay, can you provide the applicable penal codes? Has anyone tried to buy a C&R from gunbroker and what was the result?

Yes, and the results are mixed. YMMV.

But keep in mind that the penalty for violating PC27585 falls on the importer/CA resident, not the shipper. That means you if you are the buyer. So regardless of whether someone will send you a gun by mail, you should be comfortable that what you are doing is legal.

Here is the readers digest concatenation of the law we are worried about:

(a) Commencing January 1, 2015, a resident of this state shall not import into this state, bring into this state, or transport into this state, any firearm that he or she purchased or otherwise obtained on or after January 1, 2015, from outside of this state unless he or she first has that firearm delivered to a dealer in this state for delivery to that resident pursuant to the procedures set forth in Section 27540 and Article 1 (commencing with Section 26700) and Article 2 (commencing with Section 26800) of Chapter 2.

(b) Subdivision (a) does not apply to or affect any of the following:
(1)(1) A person (who) is licensed as a collector pursuant to Chapter 44 ...
AND
(4) The licensed collector takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state pursuant to the provisions of subsection (j) of Section 923 of Title 18 of the United States Code, as amended by Public Law 104-208, and transports the firearm into this state.

So the million dollar question, and the one that will be answered in a jury trial (in the worst case) is:

what does "takes actual possession of that firearm outside of this state" mean? Does that mean you have to go and get it, or is it OK if you send UPS to go and get it?

[firefly416]

But keep in mind that the penalty for violating PC27585 falls on the importer/CA resident, not the shipper.

Why is it so hard to understand that this is exactly why I am asking about this? I am just trying to conform to the law, **** me right?

That means you if you are the buyer. So regardless of whether someone will send you a gun by mail, you should be comfortable that what you are doing is legal.

I am not a bloody idiot, I know the difference between the buyer and the seller. Would you stop being so condescending to someone for simply asking for more information?

[TRICKSTER]

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySection.xhtml?lawCode=PEN&sectionNum=27820

ARTICLE 5. Exceptions to the Requirement of Obtaining a Verification Number [27805 - 27835] ( Article 5 added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. )


27820.

If all of the following requirements are satisfied, Section 27555 does not apply to the sale, loan, or transfer of a firearm:

(a) The sale, loan, or transfer is infrequent, as defined in Section 16730.

(b) The firearm is not a handgun.

(c) The firearm is a curio or relic manufactured at least 50 years prior to the current date but is not a replica, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations, or its successor.
(Added by Stats. 2010, Ch. 711, Sec. 6. (SB 1080) Effective January 1, 2011. Operative January 1, 2012, by Sec. 10 of Ch. 711.)

[SkyHawk]

Why is it so hard to understand that this is exactly why I am asking about this? I am just trying to conform to the law, **** me right?



I am not a bloody idiot, I know the difference between the buyer and the seller. Would you stop being so condescending to someone for simply asking for more information?

Relax, nothing was aimed at you and if you think it was condescending, maybe you should join the snowflakes on HuffPo from now on.

This is not mansplaining. You have a serious chip on your shoulder it seems, when someone takes time out of their day to explain something in detail and you either do not like or do not understand the answer: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...82&postcount=1

This thread discussing laws and consequences will live on long after you have lost interest in this subject. Perhaps my clarity and citations will later help someone else who actually takes the time to use the search tool here, if not you. Therefore, I do not spare details. No it is not fun, and asking for simple yes or no answers when Ca gun laws are involved may be asking for too much,

[firefly416]

http://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/fa...ctionNum=27820

"Exceptions to the Requirement of Obtaining a Verification Number"

What in the heck is a "Verification Number" and in what circumstances would you need one anyway?