priming Pyrodex P with FFFFg

[conradin]

We all know the black powder law of CA makes doing flintlock difficult...and for some, impossible..because to fire a non-caplock firearm one must use two different holy black...

Does anyone has positive experience or has done some experimentation of using FFFFg to prime Pyrodex P? Does that work in pistol? Rifle?

I have read somewhere that it is possible to mix small amount of FFFFg with Pyrodex as the propellant. A dangerous method but all experimentation. I think it is called duplexing, but correct me if I am wrong.
I also read somewhere that one can put a tiny amount of FFFFg equivalent to half the amount of a normal priming charge at bottom of the barrel before pouring Pyrodex P on top of it, thus allowing one to charge the priming pan with FFFFg. Also a bit dangerous since we are talking about putting 1 to 2 gr in the barrel of a rifle. A measurement mistake can have bad consequences.

If one uses larger than normal FFg amount of FFFg Pyrodex for rifle and then prime it with FFFFg, will that work?

If it is possible, at all, to use FFFFg to prime Pyrodex P, then what kind of formula or combination you come out that is the best..accuracy, distance, grouping?

I would not be asking this question if not because we are all living in California and have to deal with the absurd 1 pound law.

[saki302]

From folks who know better than I do:

http://thefiringline.com/forums/archive/index.php?t-466472.html

[Eljay]

There's a lot of questions in there. First off, don't use 4F. It's not necessary in the pan and it might make your life more complicated when duplexing. I wouldn't want to duplex with 4F. You can use 3F in both the pan and the main charge of a flintlock.

Secondly, you don't mix the powders. There IS a 1950s thing when you couldn't get good black powder and people would mix in a small amount of smokeless. This is totally different - it's a very general term for using two powders.

Ok, so let's say your normal load is 60gr Pyrodex. I'm just picking a number out of the air to have an example.
1. You would dump 5 or 10 grains of 3F real black into the gun as part of the main charge. Let's err on the side of reliability and use 10 for our example.
2. You would then subtract that out of your Pyrodex load and dump another 50 on in, right on top of it. You don't purposefully mix it - you want all the real black near the touch hole where it will start the ignition process.
3. Put in the patched ball as normal, make sure it's seated, etc. etc.
4. You can use the same 3F in the pan to prime. If you have a little 4F go ahead and use it, but if you only want one container at a time you can use 3F. Some people prefer it (hunting types claim it's better in moist conditions, competitive shooters want speed and would use 4F or better yet NullB which is even finer).

Once you're comfortable you can reduce the black powder component to closer to 5 grains and see what happens to the reliability.

You can use this same basic technique with a caplock that's not reliable with substitutes. In the long run you would switch to hotter/better caps, make sure your channel is clean, lots of things like that you could try. With a flintlock it's the best way to stretch the real black if you need to for whatever reason.

[conradin]

Thank you. Since Pyrodex is by volume while holy black is by weight, I would presume one need to do some calculation adjustment after dumping that small 5 gr holy black initially in order to pour the correct amount of Pyrodex?

Also, is this an example you use for a pistol? I am a little bit confused. FFFg would presume to be for pistol.

But if it is for rifle, would it make sense to use FFg to prime???

All questions are raised assuming one can only possess one kind of holy black due to the law.

[6mmintl]

I use 5 grains FFF behind two 30 grain pellets in my 1863 .58 caliber ML and it is very accurate.

[Eljay]

You measure real black by volume. It's confusing since grains is a measure of weight, but at some point somebody came up with a volume measurement based on "standard" black powder so you could make easy field measurements without a scale. 30gr of 3F will weigh more than 20gr of 2F just because it packs tighter. Crazy I know.

Pyrodex was formulated to be as powerful as Goex volume by volume.

777 is a little more powerful (15%), but so is Swiss powder - it's actually very similar to Swiss black powder power-wise.

The good news is that all makes the math easy.

You take the same approach with a single shot pistol or rifle, except with a pistol I'd use 5gr of real black to start. Don't be confused by using 3F in a rifle - that's not at all unusual even in larger bore sizes. I run my Brown Bess (.75) entirely on 3F for convenience. The Pyrodex labeling of some powder of "Pistol" is kind of weird frankly. With 777 they just went back to 2F and 3F because that's what people really care about.

[conradin]

So even a musket (for example, a Charlesville, or a matchlock) would work using 3F as prime and for that little bit at the bottom of the barrel, while the rest I will use Pyrodex select?

[Eljay]

Yes.

[xrayoneone]

Duplexing becomes an issue when reloading CARTRIDGE cases or using as the MAIN charge in the rifle. The issue there is pressure. If using solely to PRIME the pan the issue is moot. The reason is the frizzen flips up as the flint strikes it thus negating any potential for a pressure spike.

Think about lighting small piles of powder with a match. It will go "poof" and cause no damage beyond burning because pressure cannot build in that situation. Very different if you inclosed it in a sturdy container.

[xrayoneone]

Okay I'm confused. You said using FFFFg to PRIME P Pyrodex but reading your description it sounds like you are using it for the MAIN charge in the barrel, which is it? Priming is placing the powder in the pan, loading is anything tossed down the barrel.

I have used Pyrodex P as a main charge with either 3Fg or 4Fg to prime.

[Eljay]

Did you read the whole thread? He's talking about stretching his real black by using Pyrodex for most of the main charge, but using real black both a) in the pan and b) as part of the main charge. It's a thing. The manufacturer recommends it. Please don't complicate the issue if it's not something you've heard of. Some of the initial details were off but we've hashed through them.

You might very well be able to get some particular 100% pyrodex main charge to ignite with some level of reliability, especially if you have a huge touchhole, but if you have real black putting 5-10gr down first puts you in a much happier place.

[xrayoneone]

Did you read the whole thread? He's talking about stretching his real black by using Pyrodex for most of the main charge, but using real black both a) in the pan and b) as part of the main charge. It's a thing. The manufacturer recommends it. Please don't complicate the issue if it's not something you've heard of. Some of the initial details were off but we've hashed through them.

You might very well be able to get some particular 100% pyrodex main charge to ignite with some level of reliability, especially if you have a huge touchhole, but if you have real black putting 5-10gr down first puts you in a much happier place.

I read the OPs question so a) priming is priming i.e. into the pan B) priming is not placing BP in a duplex load. Terminology matters. I've had zero problems with pyrodex through flintlocks. No huge touchhole on any of my guns. What data do you have that this happier place exists with 5-10grs of black powder? Have you done it? Is your velocity increased? Accuracy? Or do you just assume that because you had fewer hangfires?

[musketjon]

Pyrodex is not recommended in flinters because of the difficulty sometimes encountered trying to ignite it.
Jon

[Eljay]

I read the OPs question so a) priming is priming i.e. into the pan B) priming is not placing BP in a duplex load. Terminology matters. I've had zero problems with pyrodex through flintlocks. No huge touchhole on any of my guns. What data do you have that this happier place exists with 5-10grs of black powder? Have you done it? Is your velocity increased? Accuracy? Or do you just assume that because you had fewer hangfires?

The OP was rather confused as to the details but we got it all sorted out.

I don't know why you're being argumentative about this. It's something Hodgdon recommends on their website, or has on the past. A simple Google search would show this is a popular, common, and non-controversial technique and I'm not interested in engaging you any further on the topic.

[Eljay]

They actually recommend 4F, go figure.

https://www.hodgdon.com/loading.html

Flintlock: To insure proper ignition in flintlock systems, 5 grains of FFFFG priming powder should be placed into the bore prior to loading the main charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex. Consult the loading data in this brochure to determine the proper charge for the caliber firearm used and the chosen projectile. The main powder charge should be reduced by 5 grains to compensate for the addition of the priming powder. While holding the firearm vertically, slowly pour the measured charge of Triple Seven or Pyrodex into the barrel. Seat the projectile firmly against the powder. Make certain that there is no airspace between the powder and the projectile. *See WARNING below.


*WARNING: Failure to follow the recommendations for use of Triple Seven and Pyrodex could result in injury and/or death to the shooter or bystanders and damage to property.