Ammo Problems - 7.65 Argentine

[SMarquez]

Knucklehead gave me some reloads that all chambered perfectly in my 91. All my reloads chambered fine too. My brass is all Norma. Some of the reloads were short necked but still work out fine. My 91 is a really fun rifle to shoot. I'd like to try some mojo sights to see what it can really do.
I'll have to give some Prvi a try, I can always use the brass.

[Hinnerk]

Finally got around to some forensic chambering of rounds in the 1891 Argentine. With a Sharpie (R) I marked up some PPU ammo and some Hornady both with PPU brass and Graf marked brass. The PPU (left cartridge in attached pic) chambered and extracted fine and the only marks were a single line where the round slid into the chamber (or rubbed against something upon extraction). The Hornady/PPU chambered hard and extracted hard and there were additional marks on the bullets from the lands (see right cartridge in attached pic). I tried to do the same with a 'Graf' cartridge but the bullet stayed in the barrel, the cartridge case came out and powder flew all over. Arrrrgh!

So, it seems that this rifle does NOT like to chamber .312 bullets (as are used by Hornady). It is noteworthy that the book "Mauser Modelo Argentino 1891" (https://books.google.com/books?id=VQ...page&q&f=false) specifies a 7.90mm bullet. That equates to .311, which is what PPU uses. It looks like I will either be reselling this Hornady ammo or pulling the bullets and using something else when I get around to reloading (I just ordered a Lyman Crusher II press and need to acquire all the other gear).

[TRAP55]

One on the right in the pic has the bullet seated out too far. The edge of the case mouth should be crimped into the cannelure.

[FLIGHT762]

After seeing the sharpie marks, The only problem with the right bullet it's seated too far out for the throat in your rifle. I would bet if they're seated farther in, where they are not touching the lands, they will work fine. Try that first.

There won't be a problem between a .311 and a .312 bullet.

[M1NM]

if you reload, use .311 bullets. If you don't, send me your brass

Use 30-06 brass. Full length resize and trim. It'll take a good press a Lee isn't up to it. I got lots of loadings out of old military brass.

[Jarhead]

7.65 Argentine is an excellent round for reloading, you can roll your own with much improved accuracy

[6mmintl]

The solution is to clean the barrel recess, and bolt, then buy a set of dies and make your own brass out of 3006/270 trimmed to length.

Or buy more PPU and shoot what works/chambers, then tear down the rest and resize case/reload.

[Mustang]

7.65 Argentine is an excellent round for reloading, you can roll your own with much improved accuracy

I've had excellent luck with Pvri brass, IMR 4320 and .311 174 gr SMK's in my '09 Argentine.


5 rounds @200 yards (first was 12 o'clock, next 4 grouped about .75 MOA at 8- 9 o'clock.



This rifle was drilled and tapped by a prior owner, so I mounted a Bushnell 10x40 scope on it.

Lower one is the Argentine.

[Hinnerk]

After seeing the sharpie marks, The only problem with the right bullet it's seated too far out for the throat in your rifle. I would bet if they're seated farther in, where they are not touching the lands, they will work fine. Try that first.

There won't be a problem between a .311 and a .312 bullet.

Using the Hornady bullet that I got stuck in the barrel during the previous experiment, I blackened it with a Sharpie and inserted it in a piece of fired brass and chambered it to see how far in it should be seated to just touch the lands. Based on this, it seems that this factory ammo will need to have its bullets seated with the cannelure inside the neck to chamber properly in my rifle. The transition from cylindrical to ogive can be no further than 0.10" from the end of the neck in the case tested. If I can get these seated to that depth or a bit further without messing up the bullets (hope they are not crimped to prevent this) perhaps I can still use the Hornady ammo without disassembly.

I also began reloading for the first time this week. First attempts were 5 each with PPU brass, 150 gr FMJBT PPU bullets and 41.0, 41.5 or 42.0 gr IMR4320 powder. Recoil was light relative to PPU 174 gr FMJBT factory ammo and shot a couple inches higher at 50 yards than the factory ammo. Conditions were very windy. Groups for my ammo were 2.1x3.3", 2.2x1.1" and 1.1x1.9" (X by Y), respectively, with the iron sights. Factory groups were 1.5x2.7" and 4.0x1.6". Based on the same bullet procedure mentioned above, I probably seated that ammo with the bullet about 0.080" off the lands, but I don't have a good gauge and that number was by head to tip measurement.

[6mmintl]

Take a fired case, size it, and slit the neck with a fine hacksaw or Dremel cut off wheel, insert bullet of your choice way long and carefully seat into chamber with bolt or buy hand, push in with wooden dowel, extract with bolt and measure O.A.L. do This 3-4 time to get average measurement.

[Mustang]

I also began reloading for the first time this week. First attempts were 5 each with PPU brass, 150 gr FMJBT PPU bullets and 41.0, 41.5 or 42.0 gr IMR4320 powder. Recoil was light relative to PPU 174 gr FMJBT factory ammo and shot a couple inches higher at 50 yards than the factory ammo. Conditions were very windy. Groups for my ammo were 2.1x3.3", 2.2x1.1" and 1.1x1.9" (X by Y), respectively, with the iron sights. Factory groups were 1.5x2.7" and 4.0x1.6". Based on the same bullet procedure mentioned above, I probably seated that ammo with the bullet about 0.080" off the lands, but I don't have a good gauge and that number was by head to tip measurement.

I've experimented a bit with the .311 180 gr Sierra Gamekings. They are flat base and have a very long bearing surface. So far, the '09 likes them very much.

[Hinnerk]

Here are the groups, BTW. I shot these earlier in the week. Counter clockwise from upper left are the handloads. Center and upper right are factory. Aiming point was 6 o'clock on the respective targets.

[Hinnerk]

Take a fired case, size it, and slit the neck with a fine hacksaw or Dremel cut off wheel, insert bullet of your choice way long and carefully seat into chamber with bolt or buy hand, push in with wooden dowel, extract with bolt and measure O.A.L. do This 3-4 time to get average measurement.

Essentially that is what I was trying to do although I did not reform or slit the fired brass. I don't have (yet) a bullet puller so I used the the bullet that my rifling pulled from its cartridge (but it had a 'smushed' tip from the removal process). I have no gauges to measure off the ogive so only eyeballed with a caliper from the neck of the case to the end of the ogive on the Hornady bullet with the bullet reinserted to where the Sharpie markings had indicated the lands had pushed the bullet into the case.

I seated the bullets of 25 of the Hornady factory rounds deeper in the cases this evening. The bullet jackets were damaged in most cases by the process (slight copper wire formed where the crimp hit the jacket past the cannelure). I don't expect this to be much of a problem but the neck may have trouble chambering. Will find out tomorrow.