Detachable mags + Evil features w/ No FCG = AW?

[SunriseF150]

Ok I posted this in the Henderson Defense "Any interest in Dragunov/PSL rifles?" thread. Regarding shipping one of them with the thumbhole stock on, with no mag lock, but with the fire control group remove.

My post

I would think that shipping them with the FCG removed would make it ok to ship the rifle with the stocks still on and w/ no mag lock installed. That way the buyer can decide what mag lock or what to do to the stock to make it legal. I like the jumbopanda mag lock as it can be reversed without having any permanent modification done to the rifle.

A reply to my quote

I don't think that's correct. The receiver is generally the firearm, regardless of whether it has a FCG or other parts installed or not. Adding any evil part to an AK receiver that does not have a mag lock is therefore illegal.

Just my 2 cents. . .

But by PC12276.1, how is it considered a semiautomatic rifle if there is no FCG? So what do you guys think? Is it legal to have an off list rifle with evil features and detachable mags and no FCG in it?

[Hopi]

I would submit that the operating system determining whether it is semi or not is contained within the receiver and with an installed and functioning gas system you would indeed be subject to AW laws, trigger or not.

Just my $.02

[SunriseF150]

Ok so lets say we take out the bolt too.

[yellowfin]

Put a bullet button in it and be good to go.

[bwiese]

Sunrise,

Please don't encourage dangerous non-legal behavior. Too cheap to buy a BB?

You have a fair chance of having such a rifle being regarded as a "malfunctioning" evil AW, instead of one clearly configured into a non-AW configuration.

Hell, I know of no sane FFL that would accept one. In fact if, I were an FFL and someone asked me to receive one, I would assume the prospective 'customer' might be an LE agent/entrapper.

This already has happened in LA, we don't have all the details - a dude had a non-FN FAL clone (Imbel or whatever). Somehow he knew he was gonna get popped so he just took out the bolt/carrier assy, leaving the rest of the rifle intact. He was convicted. Now, there was apparently other 'color' in the case and he may not have had gun-aware lawyers, but that's a game you don't wanna play regardless.

In short: "Broken gun does not equal non-AW" when not involving 12276.1PC features. Clear measures must be taken to differentiate an off-list rifle from an AW - no PG/no features, or use a maglock w/fixed 10rd magazine.

[SunriseF150]

I wasn't stating I was going to do this. I was just asking if it was ok. I personally would just go the extra step and put a BB on it and call it good. But I was just thinking that if it doesn't fire then how can it be considered semi auto? Thats similar to removing the gas piston from an ak and calling it a bolt action right?

[PIRATE14]

In short: "Broken gun does not equal non-AW" when not involving 12276.1PC features. Clear measures must be taken to differentiate an off-list rifle from an AW - no PG/no features, or use a maglock w/fixed 10rd magazine.

THIS is good info.......

[bwiese]

But I was just thinking that if it doesn't fire then how can it be considered semi auto? Thats similar to removing the gas piston from an ak and calling it a bolt action right?

That is separate/different issue: you've transitioned a semiauto rifle into a manually-cycled one. Also, (depending on AK variant) the gas port might be plugged somehow - unless there's a switchable G/L gas plug)

That's a much bigger difference than that of a non-working rifle having no provisions made to operate outside its AW configuration.

[Paratus et Vigilans]

In short: "Broken gun does not equal non-AW" when not involving 12276.1PC features. Clear measures must be taken to differentiate an off-list rifle from an AW - no PG/no features, or use a maglock w/fixed 10rd magazine.

+1 Gotta go with Bill on this one. I wouldn't want to try to argue that a "broken AW" is NOT an AW.

Plus, why tempt fate?? My grandmother used to say that "Cleanliness is next to Godliness, and soap is cheap." So are BB's.

[savageevo]

OP, take Bwiese advice. Or Simply ask them to send you the rifle stock and send the reciever to the ffl then you can fill in the hole so there will not be a pistol grip. You should already know this.

[MILLITIAof1]

I'll buy you the bb if you let me shoot it a couple of times.

[EBR Works]

What if the mag catch assembly on a PSL is removed by drilling out the rivet prior to shipment? Since there is no way for the mag to be locked into the rifle other than by holding it in place with your hand, would the rifle still be considered configured as an AW with the thumbhole stock still in place? The dealer from whom I purchased it offered to do this but I told them no. I ended up sending a jumbopanda lock to them to ship the rifle in a compliant configuration. Thanks.

[Paratus et Vigilans]

What if the mag catch assembly on a PSL is removed by drilling out the rivet prior to shipment? Since there is no way for the mag to be locked into the rifle other than by holding it in place with your hand, would the rifle still be considered configured as an AW with the thumbhole stock still in place? The dealer from whom I purchased it offered to do this but I told them no. I ended up sending a jumbopanda lock to them to ship the rifle in a compliant configuration. Thanks.

Holding the mag in place with your hand means it is still "detachable" without the need for a tool, which makes it an AW . . . of course, IMHO.

[EBR Works]

Holding the mag in place with your hand means it is still "detachable" without the need for a tool, which makes it an AW . . . of course, IMHO.

How can you detach something that is not attached?

[ohsmily]

What if the mag catch assembly on a PSL is removed by drilling out the rivet prior to shipment? Since there is no way for the mag to be locked into the rifle other than by holding it in place with your hand, would the rifle still be considered configured as an AW with the thumbhole stock still in place? The dealer from whom I purchased it offered to do this but I told them no. I ended up sending a jumbopanda lock to them to ship the rifle in a compliant configuration. Thanks.

It can still be removed without a tool then. No magazine catch still makes for a detachable magazine in that it can be removed from the gun without the use of a tool.

How can you detach something that is not attached?

You need to read the definition of detachable. To paraphrase a portion of it, a magazine is detachable if it can be removed from the gun without the use of a tool or disassembly of the firearm. If you can insert it and then remove it without the use of a tool = detachable under the law.