Shooting up to 500 yards.. Can an AR hold up to a bolt gun?

[1911Operator]

My mindset: I dont think i would be making any shots past 500 yards, id like to stick to my AR platform since I already have so much gear/parts for it.

The question is: Given good match grade ammo, can a AR upper be built to perform as good as a bolt gun up to 500 yards?

Id like to stick to 5.56 but going with a AR10 is not out of the question for me. Should I invest in a good upper when I go shooting 100-500 yards or should I build/buy a completely different rifle for this?

[MrPlink]

A purpose built AR compared to an off the rack ho hum bolt gun, sure.

But compared to a purpose built precision bolt gun, then the bolt gun wins.

Really depends on your purpose.
though. If you are going for practical accuracy then the AR should be fine.

If you want to print the tiniest groups possible go with a bolt gun or get prepared to play a very expensive game with a semi auto.

[ShadowX]

Making shots up to 500 yards vs making shots accurately at 500 yards are two different subjects. I'm assuming you're talking about target practice only since the 223 round does not have sufficient energy and accuracy at that range to kill most medium sized animals humanely. On very calm days with no wind, some people have used custom 223 rifles and hit targets at a mile away with consistency, so the round can go out very far.

http://www.longrangehunting.com/articles/shooting-223-mile-1.php

Most semi auto 223 can get out to 500 yards with reasonable accuracy (2-3 MOA). You should be able to hit a 15 inch target consistently as long as the wind is not blowing erratically. I have hit 600 yard 10" targets at Angeles range (the furthest hangers on the left) with a semi 223 as long as the wind was not shifting. If the wind is shifting, staying on target is very difficult if you don't know how to read the wind. Its actually a limitation of the ammunition. At that range, it is going subsonic and the bullet BC (about .25) is relatively lower than a 308. Because its in the air longer, with less mass and lower BC, it would be affected by the wind more. The wind is what causes most of the problems with accuracy at that distance. Using match grade ammo improves the performance, but the improvements would be less then the effects of wind at that distance. For instance, a Hornady 55 grain FMJ bullet has a BC of .243, the match grade V-MAX round only has a .255 BC (info from Hornady reloading manual), so the differences are very small. There is no doubt there will be an improvement using match grade ammo, but the improvement may not offset the errors you get with inaccurate wind readings at that distance.

A bolt gun can ideally give you better accuracy since there are no moving mass on the bolt to affect your shot. If you have two guns with identical barrels and one is a bolt vs a semi-auto, the bolt should be more accurate. However, if you use match grade barrels and quality parts on the AR build, you can potentially build a sub-MOA gun. There are semi autos made by custom shops and JP enterprises that can get sub-MOA consistently. They use thick match grade bull barrels and the rifling is extremely precise.

Another option is to put in a variable gas port on the AR build that allows you to adjust to no gas flow to the BCG. In essence, you created a bolt action gun if its set to no gas going to the BCG or piston. I've seen some companies that make adjustable port and some that uses an adjustable valve for a gas driven AR or a piston system. There are other options such as creating a "straight pull" AR15 gun which is also a bolt action rifle. It will help improve accuracy over a semi rifle.

Another improvement you can make to increase the consistency of the rifle is to use a two-stage match grade trigger or one with a very consistent break point. Having a nice consistent take up and break point improves the repeatability of each shot. There are a lot of quality companies like Geissele or Timney who makes great triggers for the AR platform. A bolt gun may not have as many options as the AR platform in this performance factor.

If you get a very good quality match grade barrel and use an adjustable gas port system, you should be able to stay in the AR platform and get 1.5 MOA or better accuracy at 500 yards. You want better accuracy consistently at that distance, you need to change calibers or even to a different platform. Going to a bolt action, you would still have all the limitations of the bullet itself.

[FMJBT]

Are you shooting for group, or shooting at steel? A quality bolt gun will be more consistent than an AR for the most part, and typically easier to shoot accurately due to the lack of reciprocating mass when fired. A bolt gun would be my pick for groups on paper.

I'd go with the AR for shooting at steel however, despite the slight disadvantage in precision. Rapid follow up shots go a long way towards making up for being less precise, especially in windy environments where you can correct and get off a second shot before the wind changes speed or direction.

For 100-500 yards I'd go with a 16"-18" quality barreled upper with either 1:7 or 1:8 twist shooting Sierra/Nosler 77s or Hornady 75 grain BTHP. If it's free floated with decent optics, mount and trigger you should be more than capable of getting hits to 500+ yards.

[Jaybird]

To answer the question: Yes with proper ammo and an SPR or the Mk12 Mod0 upper, I believe the semi-auto can keep up with a bolt gun out to 500 yds. Some good 77gr. ammo should do the job.

[ldsnet]

I know the USMC trains out to 500 meters. It is part of their qualification fire. They are using rack grade rifles with who-knows how many rounds through the barrels.

Could your pristine AR with a match grade barrel shoot as well as a bolt gun at 500 meters? I would think so . . . but you need to compare like condition and quality weapons. The biggest difference I can see is the sights. The AR is a total package, designed to be effective on a man size target at 500 meters WITH OPEN SIGHTS! Will your compared bolt gun have the same requirement?

[ocabj]

Same cartridge? Yes, it'll be close enough.

[damon1272]

500 yards is very doable. 55 grn match ammo will do it also. Need to have a very accurate ar but mine performs as well as my bolt varmint rifles. You will spend more to get the accurate ar but it is very doable.

[Fjold]

No semiauto can compete with a good bolt action head to head, period. You can spend as much money as you have to build an accurate semiauto and there will always be a bolt gun that will beat you.

Look at all the guns at the big benchrest matches. These guys will sell their soul .05" of group size and in any class, at any distance (100, 300, 600 and 1,000 yards) there never has been nor ever will be a semiauto in competition. These guys can use any action that they can build, buy or borrow and if a semi could compete, someone would be shooting it.

[spamsucker]

I shoot 750m with an AR. Every round hits unless I blow the wind call. My AR's have always grouped right with my bolt guns. I'm sure a bolt is theoretically more potentially accurate given infinite money poured into it but if there's an actual budget in place, I don't see any downside to AR platform for intermediate range other than I just don't like the platform much in the first place.

I have several uppers, mostly M4 profile so not target uppers at all, and they're all off the shelf bargain jobs, like New Frontier and Del-Ton. Each and every one of them is < 1MOA. If you want to make bug hole groups at 500m then a bolt gun is probably better. If you just want to smack a gong or some smallish steel plates or coyotes at 500m, then honestly just grab your AR-15 and quit worrying. If you can shoot it, it can do it.

[hossb7]

Standard and I were hitting 400 yards on 1/4 size Tac Strike steel yesterday.

His AR is a 20" BCM upper with TA01NSN.
Mine is a 16" BCM upper with TA33.

We were shooting a mix of 55gr and 62gr. The 62gr was MUCH more consistent. With 55gr being so light the wind really pushes it around.

This is through his ACOG:



for clarity:




bottom line: if we can hit 400 with ACOGS and lightweight ammo, then 500 yards is very doable. you need a good quality rifle, good optics and good ammo.

[Jarhead]

Marines Do It

[vintagearms]

I have both a purpose built AR for long range (18" 1 in 8 SS Noveske with rifle gas) and it won't compete with my .223 bolt action using the same 69-77 grain ammo. Bolt actions will be inherently more accurate than a semi.

[Packy14]

My mindset: I dont think i would be making any shots past 500 yards, id like to stick to my AR platform since I already have so much gear/parts for it.

The question is: Given good match grade ammo, can a AR upper be built to perform as good as a bolt gun up to 500 yards?

Id like to stick to 5.56 but going with a AR10 is not out of the question for me. Should I invest in a good upper when I go shooting 100-500 yards or should I build/buy a completely different rifle for this?

If you can turn the gas off (making your AR a non-autoloader) and you have a good setup you can get close, but a bolt gun of quality should win out for tiny group accuracy... but most shooters can't outshoot their guns. You also have to take your optics into account... they have to be of equal quality or it's not a fair fight.

[NorCalFocus]

Like everyone else said bolt > semi.

But you can build a damn nice shooter with the AR platform. If your goal is 500 yards, I would strongly consider 6.5 grendal, or plan on handloading 69+ grain .223.