Thinking about a U.S ARMS PATRIOT 15 lower

[Junkie]

Similarly, I have a featureless AR. It would be pointless to include a BB with it, and a waste of money (not a ton, but something). There are plenty of ways to not need a BB.

[Mitch]

I see no issue with selling them without a bullet button. Stripped lowers don't have one installed so why should assembled lowers?

Because the barrier to entry is much higher for a stripped lower and there is a much greater presumption the customer who buys a stripped lower has a better understanding of the laws surrounding AR-15s in California.

With a complete lower, the customer can simply take it home and slap on any upper he has; and many customers, given a choice between a lower with a bullet button and one without, will opt for the latter just because.

So they aren't breaking the law, but the presumption is that an ignorant person could buy the lower, turn it into a 'regular' AR15 and then go to jail for hella days?

They aren't breaking any law, it's simply irresponsible.

In the same way you don't see many of them selling folding stock kits for Mini-14s. It's not illegal to sell them, but almost anyone who bought one and installed it would be committing a felony (though I do see them being sold at gun shows).

[Merc1138]

That is what the store said. The Patriot 15 has a bullet button because it is sold as a centerfire lower, but the frontier arms does not since it sold as a rimfire lower.

It's not a "rimfire lower". It could be a bolt action lower if you want. "Multi" or even having a specific cartridge stamped on the mag well doesn't mean anything.

Selling a lower without a bullet button is a felony in the making. I don't care what the store calls it. How many dumbasses are going to walk in and say, "Oh, I want the one that let's me drop mags without a tool!" They don't even have to be dumbasses, just new to the game.

I have a pair of AR-15 rifles a few feet from me right now with no bullet buttons. They are dedicated rimfire. One I bought complete (S&W MP-15/22); the other I built from a stripped lower and always remains with its rimfire upper.

But selling standard lowers in California seems pretty dangerous to me. While we are acquainting n00bs with the laws, a better solution would be to sell bullet button lowers and let people exchange the bullet button for a standard mag release if they want to go rimfire. It sure doesn't take much effort to make the swap.

You mean just like a store selling a factory packaged LPK that comes with a normal mag release? Something DOZENS of stores do? NFA isn't the only company that makes lowers that come with a normal mag release pre-installed. You also seem to be forgetting featureless builds. Someone could simply toss the unwanted generic A2 grip, or throw a grip wrap on it.

Because the barrier to entry is much higher for a stripped lower and there is a much greater presumption the customer who buys a stripped lower has a better understanding of the laws surrounding AR-15s in California.

With a complete lower, the customer can simply take it home and slap on any upper he has; and many customers, given a choice between a lower with a bullet button and one without, will opt for the latter just because.


They aren't breaking any law, it's simply irresponsible.

In the same way you don't see many of them selling folding stock kits for Mini-14s. It's not illegal to sell them, but almost anyone who bought one and installed it would be committing a felony (though I do see them being sold at gun shows).

You might as well claim that magazine rebuild kits were sold irresponsibly because someone could commit a felony by manufacturing a 30 round magazine. Do you also have a problem with Bed, Bath, & Beyond for selling cutlery? Someone could use those knives to murder someone, a felony.

[ConcealedKalifornia]

Yeah I don't really see a problem with it.... Its not (and/or shouldn't be) the stores responsibility to make sure you don't break the law. If it was my shop, I definitely would mention the BB thing to anyone that bought the lower, just to be a nice guy... and maybe a little bit to cover my *** just in case, but I still don't see a problem with it

[Mitch]

You mean just like a store selling a factory packaged LPK that comes with a normal mag release? Something DOZENS of stores do?

I guess you missed the part of my post where I suggested anyone who is building a stripped lower in California is very likely familiar with AR-15 laws. You are dealing with a different sort of customer compared to . . . anyone who can pass a background check.

You might as well claim that magazine rebuild kits were sold irresponsibly because someone could commit a felony by manufacturing a 30 round magazine.

Anyone in that business knew that a fair percentage of their customers were deliberately illegally manufacturing high capacity magazines. I could tell that just from the discussions here on Calguns. Any time someone asked about procuring high capacity mags in California a dozen smarties would pipe up with the information that you can order parts kits all day long. Uh huh. Why would I be interested in parts kits if I'm trying to find some magazines?

There's a difference between knowing your customer intends to deliberately break the law and setting him up to do so unintentionally. If you are out of state, who cares? It's a dumb law and it doesn't apply to you.

[Mossy Man]

I have a complete Spikes for sale with BB and PSA LBK for $200

[Merc1138]

I guess you missed the part of my post where I suggested anyone who is building a stripped lower in California is very likely familiar with AR-15 laws. You are dealing with a different sort of customer compared to . . . anyone who can pass a background check.


Anyone in that business knew that a fair percentage of their customers were deliberately illegally manufacturing high capacity magazines. I could tell that just from the discussions here on Calguns. Any time someone asked about procuring high capacity mags in California a dozen smarties would pipe up with the information that you can order parts kits all day long. Uh huh. Why would I be interested in parts kits if I'm trying to find some magazines?

There's a difference between knowing your customer intends to deliberately break the law and setting him up to do so unintentionally. If you are out of state, who cares? It's a dumb law and it doesn't apply to you.

So again... how is it the responsibility of the business that the customer doesn't assemble the product in a manner that happens to be illegal?

And are you seriously trying to accuse the calguns community of not only supporting, but promoting illegal activity?

[bdock]

I've got one. A friend of mine bought it and then wanted to sell it last year, bought it for $25 bucks. So $60 with dros.

Totally worth it. I cant break it. I put a S&W M&P Sport upper on it. Its my beater.

[stand125]

Guess I should clarify, so people can get their panties unbunched. I honestly don't hear things unless I am sitting by candle light talking to myself and wishing I had more friends

1. I walked into store
2. I asked about lowers
3. Clerk showed me two different lowers
4. Clerk handed me Patriot and said it is sold for a centerfire rifle and has BB
5. Clerk showed me New frontier. Clerk said because it was made to be used on a rimfire build, it does not have BB. if someone used it for a centerfire build then they would need a BB.

I wish it was complicated for drama purposes, but it really was that simple.

[stand125]

As others have said, it is not a rimfire lower. Clearly marked "CAL MULTI" in lower right

That's a different model lower. Yes, you would need a BB on that one, Or would you ( HHHMMMM ) if you used it on a Rimfire Build. Now I want to find one for $25.00

[DoddRod]

That's a different model lower. Yes, you would need a BB on that one, Or would you ( HHHMMMM ) if you used it on a Rimfire Build. Now I want to find one for $25.00

Actually I am considering making it a rimfire as I will be swapping it out to join the aluminum lower club. I originally had a PTAC upper on it and since upgrading I figured I would have the curtain match the drapes (so to speak)

[Mossy Man]

It could be marked 5.56mm and still not need a BB.

It needs to be both center fire AND semi auto for features to matter.

[Merc1138]

That's a different model lower. Yes, you would need a BB on that one, Or would you ( HHHMMMM ) if you used it on a Rimfire Build. Now I want to find one for $25.00

You wouldn't need a BB on that lower if it were used in a semi auto centerfire build without AW features. Nor would you need it for a centerfire manually operated build.

Whether or not a lower comes from a manufacturer with a BB, or the caliber marking(if any), means absolutely nothing.

[Mitch]

That's a different model lower. Yes, you would need a BB on that one, Or would you ( HHHMMMM ) if you used it on a Rimfire Build. Now I want to find one for $25.00

It would not need a bullet button for a rimfire build. Markings don't matter.

[Mossy Man]

So....my lower is still for sale lol