yet another thread about problems with sig716...

[latebloomer]

hi all,

new member from LA area, this is my first post. hi everyone

i also posted this at sigtalk but thought i'd post here also as i'm starting to get frustrated

i just got back from a saturday at the range so i'm going to brain dump while it's fresh in my mind. i recently bought a sig sauer sig716 patrol (picked it up on july 8) - i admit i didn't do a whole hell of a lot of research because i trust the sig sauer name and wanted a 308 AR... maybe a mistake? - and have been having the same ftf/fte/jam/accuracy problems as a lot of others.

so far i've put 200 rounds through it, and it hasn't shot a SINGLE trouble-free magazine. i've used mid-range commercial factory ammo - not junk, but not match grade either - pmc, fiocchi, and winchester 7.62 nato. i have not shot heavier 168 grain 308 or match quality ammunition because quite frankly this gun should be able to shoot commercial ammo that works in every other rifle.

i am using 10 round p-mags and have 3 different ones that all produce the same results (2 10 rounders and one 20 body/10 rounder) after the 200th round today i was pretty disappointed that the problems did not seem to get ANY better toward the end of my range time.

problems are:

* bolt does not lock open after last round shot (every magazine)
* fails to feed a new round into the chamber (1 out of 2-3 shots) - need to charge manually
* feed is successful (round stripped from magazine), but fails to go into battery (bolt doesn't seat properly)
* fails to eject spent casing (no stovepipe but bcg sits halfway open), need to charge manually to eject/reload
* oftentimes, pulling charging handle manually causes a jam due to double-feed (this is probably because i am new and can not often tell by "feel" what is wrong with the rifle until i set it down and look, usually i just pull the charging handle)
* damages brass and bullet (sometimes marred jacket, sometimes crimped brass, sometimes dent in brass... basically it's just getting mangled at some point).
* hit/miss accuracy. when the gun is on, it's freaking amazing and a casual/journeyman shooter like myself can hit 1-2 moa groups but it will send flyers ALL the time, even when it feels like i sent the round just fine. i suspect bullet is being marred and is affecting ballistics.

here's what i did BEFORE the first shot *AND* do after each time i shoot it (except clean/lube buffer spring)

* thorough cleaning with CLP and brushes and patches and rods until all fouling is gone
* disassemble/clean/lube/reassemble/lube BCG including bolt, extractor, firing pin, retainer pin, interior and exterior of bolt carrier body
* disassemble/clean/reassemble/LIGHT lubed buffer (h2), buffer spring, and buffer tube (yes i even wiped down the interior of the tube - now the rifle produces a nice standard AR "sproing" sound)
* general clean/lube of fire control group
* thorough lube job with supplied tw-25b and CLP on bcg

tried shooting gun on:

* adverse setting (malfunctions as above)
* normal setting (malfunctions as above)
* suppressed setting (couldn't even push bolt back to eject spent cartridge)
* no gas (completely manual action - obviously works fine this way)

based on my research here and on calguns and ar15.com, it seems there are FIVE (yes, count 'em five) theories on why these guns malfunction:

theory 1. feed ramps are too low/milled too far
theory 2. feed ramps are too rough and need to be polished
theory 3. buffer spring is too strong and needs to be broken in
theory 4. bcg needs to be broken in due to tight tolerances
theory 5. packing/preservative grease interfering with operation i.e. operator needs to clean the gun more/better

so my question is:

* how many rounds is enough to 'break in' the reciprocating parts (buffer spring and bcg) to have a functioning rifle (many people say they got past this breakin period successfully .... hard to believe, but that's what they say).

* and related: after how many rounds should i call sig and send this in? i am only asking for opinions because i am hesitant to continue to spend money on ammunition to continue working it in, if this gun can be considered DOA and needs to be sent back.

* is there anything else i should be cleaning in the rifle??? gas mechanism / piston / should i go there?

thanks for any feedback folks!

my new glock pistol that i also picked up on the same day has sent 300 rounds without a problem i can only imagine how stoked i would be if my new rifle had that going for it ...

[Taquero07]

I had a Sig 556 Classic Swat (my avatar when I first created the my account here) and decided to sell it. I have since heard and read horror stories related to Sig QC, unfortunately for guys like you and I, we bought into the Sig name (they have excellent pistols). I would send your rifle back to Sig and then consider selling it if the problems you have persist.

[osis32]

It could be a gas system problem. Ie the gas feed hole in the barrel isn't machined right or is obstructed. Sounds like the bcg isn't traveling back far enough for some reason. If check there first. All the other problems I'm not familiar with but one could be the problem or a combination of two or more. Does it feel like it's grinding when you rack it? It should require slightly more strength than an ar carbine buffer. That's all i can suggest without looking at it.

[Howitzer1987]

I honestly would just give Sig a call and lay out the issues you are having just like you did here. After all you did pay for a working product. As for this issues you are having, it sounds like the system is undergassed and is not pushing the bcg far back enough to strip a new round from the magazine and into the chamber. And as for breaking in a gun for tight tolerances, I had the same thing with my Kriss Vector and it only took 400 rounds of jams and issues before the problem kinda resolved itself

[latebloomer]

thanks for input guys. i am going to put another 100-200 rounds through it and then call sig.

i took apart the gas system last night during my normal after-range cleaning and there was some carbon buildup - the piston did not fall out on its own, i had to tug on it a little. i cleaned that up pretty nicely and gonna head to range again today. after today if it doesn't at least get better i'm gonna send her in.

i haven't shot very many semi auto rifles, so it's good to hear other gun makes (might) require break in as well, for whatever reason. i don't mind spending some ammo, as i can still practice firing, just a little embarassing and frustrating to be charging my expensive new toy multiple times per mag.

cheers

[missiontrails]

Sounds like the same issues the SR-762 had in the beginning. Ruger had to redesign certain elements, now they run like tops. I ALMOST took the bait that Sig threw out there with the rebates, but instead broke my version 2 SR-762 out of jail yesterday. Many who had the older SR's have either had their uppers replaced, or have new rifles.

[Stuttgart]

Hello

I have a 516 that was having a few problems in the beginning. I would recommend using up more of the MP25 grease on the bolt and the contact areas inside the receiver areas, if you can try to store the rifle with the bolt locked back, shoot it only in the "adverse" setting for a while. (Shooting in adverse setting is the only way my 516 can handle cheap Tula ammo), double check the gas ports, maybe try a different magazine like one of the HK maritime steel ones. I guess you've done most of these things but hope it can be sorted it out. I was quite peeved when mine was not functioning 100% in the beginning, after all it's supposed to be a tool to defend yourself ... Good luck ...

[sammy]

It is disappointment but don't make it more so. Save the 200 rounds and send it back. There is nothing that 200 rounds will do other than make you more upset you waisted them. Ammo is way too expensive to run in an unreliable gun.

Sammy

[laurelpark]

Send it back to Sig - they'll do right by it. The company is a pain to deal with on a lot of levels, but as far as backing their products, they're top notch.

While I've never bought a R716 Patrol, I have a whole collection of 716 rifles (3-Gun Heavys and DMRs) and they've been flawless. In fact, they've blown me away with their quality and accuracy. Not sure if I got incredibly lucky by not having a bad one in the bunch, or you got incredibly unlucky by getting a bad one. In any event, give Sig a call and they'll make it right.

[Dave626]

Sorry to hear your problem. I had the exact problems of my sig716. I did everything as you mention. Even after 400rds, problem still there. I end up sold it cheap to someone else and I told the buyer about the gun issue. My suggestion, just sent it back. Don't waste time. Yesterday I was in angeles range. A guy next to be with a 716 with the new sig stock. I saw he shoots shot after shot without any issue. I don't know what to say beside sending back to sig or sell it.

If u want a trouble free semi 308, get the LMT mws. Sub moa from factory, rebarrel with 2 screw.

[latebloomer]

just got back from angeles. put 100 rounds through it including 168gr 308 on adverse, no improvement so I called it quits. if anything it got worse...

gonna call and send it back to sig tomorrow. something is very wrong with this rifle.

on the bright side I was able to hit small gongs at 300 yards. there was a random styrofoam cup in the dirt at 200 yards (!) which I shot full of holes so I am hopeful this is a rifle worth fixing.

thanks for input everyone!

[axhoaxho]

The Sig 716, when brand new, is somewhat tight. A little old school cleaning and oiling, and a couple hundred rounds (e.g. Winchester Q3130) of nice break-in, would do it.

Watch this video, it should help. The Sig 716 is a very nice gun, enjoy it with good health.

[latebloomer]

yeah i did all that. multiple times. to anyone in the future looking at this thread: i cleaned and lubed the PISS out of this thing. i spent hours and hours in front of the tv scrubbing the hell out of this gun. at this point i could clean and assemble it blindfolded, and i'm no soldier, just a computer nerd that likes guns.

it's still failing on almost every single shot. i don't think this is a matter of more cleaning or burning another $200 of ammo to break it in.

[imarangemaster]

I have a problem with a weapon that "requires a break in" or "requires special care, etc". You paid top dollar for something that does not work- PERIOD That is the long and short of it. I had a high dollar Pedersoli pump action "lightning" for CAS. It didn't work. It went back.

My PTR 91 functioned flawlessly out of the box.

[baddos]

i have a ruger sr762 with similar problems. It's on it's way back to them right now for hopefully the final touches to make it work correctly.

The reality I think is that today manufacturers are so rushed to get product out the door, that they cut corners to meet demand.