Best Hunting Upper for Medium Sized Game

[taperxz]

His link to his products are in his sig line.

http://www.verwoestpa.com/AR15_barrels_s/1827.htm

I am paying $1200-$1300 for the 243WSSM I have the means to do this and it basically gives me two rifles in one. I thought it would be fun.

[peppermintman]

Ok for a dedicated bolt rifle my first choice would be of course a .270 and second would be .243. .270 should be able to knock down anything I North America. 30-06 is way too much rifle. Shoot someone's .270 and tell how accurate that bolt rifle is. Get a nice scope and you're GTG

[Shovel]

OP - It sounds like you have some great options. If you want to hunt with your AR, then you can use intermediate rounds like 300 Blkout, 6.8, and 6.5. If you want something a little bit more powerful, then you can get a WSSM upper from ChicoRedNeck. The intermediate rounds might, IMO, be easier to get at a store. Although if you reload then that might not be an issue.

If you got an upper or a new rifle, you would still need a dedicated scope so your only cost difference is the Rifle vs the Upper. I would check out Silver State Armory for a 6.8 upper, http://www.verwoestpa.com/ for a WSSM upper and Remington for a bolt action. IMHO.

[chicoredneck]

Some dude named Chuck Hawks disagrees with you...

http://www.chuckhawks.com/25caliber_cartridges.htm

".25 WSSM
The .25 WSSM is the third cartridge to be introduced by Winchester on the super short WSSM case, and the newest .25 caliber cartridge as of this writing. This is basically a shortened version of the WSM case--a clear example of diminishing returns.

Like the other WSSM cartridges, the .25 WSSM is not a true magnum at all. In performance it is quite similar to the old .257 Roberts Improved wildcat, and slightly inferior to the .25-06 Remington, especially with heavy bullets. It cannot be denied, however, that the petite Winchester Model 70 Classic Featherweight rifle offered in .25 WSSM is a very cute hunting rifle."

But hey, I'll bet the deer don't notice.

The 25WSSM exactly duplicates factory 25-06 loaded ammo even though it is in a smaller case because it has a high pressure rating.

Chuck Hawks and I agree... on this matter at least. If you handload, the 25-06 has more case capacity, and therefore can be loaded to faster velocities. My post mentioned specifically factory ammo. You will find that factory loaded 25-06 ammo has the same exact ballistics as factory loaded 25 WSSM ammo. The one exception to this rule may be Hornady Superfromace ammo. So for the majority of hunters who do not handload, ballistically the two cartridges are identical.

Factory specs for a 120gr bullet for a 25-06 is 2990 fps.
Factory specs for a 120gr bullet for a 25WSSM is 2990 fps.

Or for both cartridges with 110gr bullets, 3100fps from factory ammo. See the below links.

http://www.winchester.com/Products/rifle-ammunition/Advanced/AccuBond-CT/Pages/default.aspx?c=25+WSSM

http://www.winchester.com/Products/rifle-ammunition/Advanced/AccuBond-CT/Pages/default.aspx?c=25+WSSM

I am not attempting to argue with anybody over which cartridge is better or worse. They all have their advantages and drawbacks. I prefer hunting with a WSSM in an AR for my purposes, but I also own and hunt with a 223 and 6.8 in an AR, as well as several cartridges in a bolt gun.

[Kerplow]

Mr. Redneck, sir, might I inquire as to why wssm parts are limited to professional builders, and when they might become available to common folk?

[chicoredneck]

tpaerxz, and chicoredneck - if you are limiting yourself to an ar-15 lower, then yes the wssm cartridges are the most bang you are likely to get over 150 yards (the big bore 458 socom, 50 beowulf, etc. hit harder up close).

I personally am very interested in getting a better hunting cartridge to fit in an ar-15, but my choice would be to optimize for closer than 400 yards, which in my mind means bigger diameter than .25 caliber.

What I don't think is that I can get it cheaper that a dedicated boltgun. And Chicoredneck did make the direct comparison to the boltgun calibers, thus the answer.

In my OPINION the 6.8 is enough gun, and going with the custom high-pressure barrel extensions and bolt heads required by the WSSMs take you out of standard AR territory. The WSSMs may be "better", but the added expense is the issue.

What barrel length are you using, and what is the overall weight of your set up chico? what does the upper cost?

The weight varies depending on what you want. Our WSSM guns are custom built. You could end up with a gun that weighs 7lbs or one significantly heavier depending on your barrel contour and length choice as well as the type of receiver. For a hunting gun I prefer a barrel at 22" for the 243 as it gives you most of the fps potential without unneeded length, but a 20" barrel is pretty good, just louder. With a 25 I prefer a 20" for a handy hunting rifle, but a 22" barrel will get the user slightly higher velocities.

You expressed wanting something larger than a .25 caliber for your AR. If you handload there are multiple wildcats based off of the WSSM cartridge. The 30 OSSM has even been SAAMI standardized, but there is only one factory load available for it. It is basically a 308 that fits an AR15.

The 6.8 is a great cartridge, and really skilled shooters can probably make it work for them out to 400 or 500 yards, but I am not comfortable shooting it that far at game. I have found that in windy conditions, the wind really blows the little 6.8 around all over the place after about 200 yards. Most people don't talk about the wind much, but I have found it to be one of the major crippling factors of intermediate rounds and why I usually draw the line at about 200 yards for my personal use. If your proficient and have a good scope and know your drops, you can take game with even a 300 blackout at 400 yards on calm days. When the wind blows it makes things very unpredictable for these small cartridges, where as the speed and better BC of high powered rifle cartridges overcomes the wind better and they retain more energy at distance.

I have shot the 6.5G, but have not tested it extensively. From what I saw it was pretty much equal to the 6.8 at hunting ranges ballistically, but the higher BC bullets I'm sure perform better in the wind than the 6.8 bullets do.

For many people shooting past 200 yards at game is unrealistic because they either live in areas where you can't see that far, or they just don't like taking game beyond that distance. For those people, flip a coin, most centerfire rifle cartridges work equally well.

[chicoredneck]

Mr. Redneck, sir, might I inquire as to why wssm parts are limited to professional builders, and when they might become available to common folk?

The two companies making WSSM parts will not release them for individual sale and will only sell the parts to those people who have agreed not to sell the components. I can't say when or if they will allow them to be sold on the open market because I don't know.

[that guy]

The weight varies depending on what you want. Our WSSM guns are custom built. You could end up with a gun that weighs 7lbs or one significantly heavier depending on your barrel contour and length choice as well as the type of receiver. For a hunting gun I prefer a barrel at 22" for the 243 as it gives you most of the fps potential without unneeded length, but a 20" barrel is pretty good, just louder. With a 25 I prefer a 20" for a handy hunting rifle, but a 22" barrel will get the user slightly higher velocities.

DPMS lite hunter is listed at 7.99 lbs (comes in 243 WIN, 260 REM, 308 WIN, 338 FED and is buy it now new in box on the gun auction sites for $1300). A DPMS AP4 (16 inch barrel) lists at 8.5 lbs, before any light weight parts are added. How close are your builds to 7lbs? How soon will you be able to start filling orders again?

You expressed wanting something larger than a .25 caliber for your AR. If you handload there are multiple wildcats based off of the WSSM cartridge. The 30 OSSM has even been SAAMI standardized, but there is only one factory load available for it. It is basically a 308 that fits an AR15.

There are some interesting options here, and I have been gathering bits and pieces to test some theories and try a few things outside of the norm on my own. But I went with a 308 in my 308 (cause I like to 308 when I 308).

There is only so much force that can be exerted on the barrel extension lugs of an AR-15 by the bolt face lugs before stuff breaks. Fat ***** cartridges mean more area for the chamber pressure to act on, and therefore more force on the parts. I can see why the manufacturers are careful to not just let any WECSOG DIY gunsmith attempt this.

[ElvenSoul]

Those mini mags sure cost a lot. What do they do to the gas system long term?

[DannyInSoCal]

Ok for a dedicated bolt rifle my first choice would be of course a .270 and second would be .243. .270 should be able to knock down anything I North America. 30-06 is way too much rifle. Shoot someone's .270 and tell how accurate that bolt rifle is. Get a nice scope and you're GTG

I actually prefer my tried and true HOWA actioned 338WinMag - Yeah she's a kicker - But pretty much will take any elk/bear/moose you might be looking for ridge to ridge/valley.

And remember those lowly 110gr 6.8SPC II rounds "only" move at about 2500/2600fpc with a "horrible" drop of about a foot at 300 yards.

But the one bright spot is you can simply swap followers and run 26rds of 6.8 in your 30rd 5.56 mags...

[ElvenSoul]

I actually prefer my tried and true HOWA actioned 338WinMag - Yeah she's a kicker - But pretty much will take any elk/bear/moose you might be looking for ridge to ridge/valley.

And remember those lowly 110gr 6.8SPC II rounds "only" move at about 2500/2600fpc with a "horrible" drop of about a foot at 300 yards.

But the one bright spot is you can simply swap followers and run 26rds of 6.8 in your 30rd 5.56 mags...

.280Rem for me with 140gr or 160gr Barnes Bullets will take anything but Kodiak Bears in North America. Near magnum performance and able to shoot flat and long. I have a Mike Bellm barrel on order for my Encore.

[deckhandmike]

But the one bright spot is you can simply swap followers and run 26rds of 6.8 in your 30rd 5.56 mags...

[/QUOTE]

Really?