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The Israeli Tavor TAR-21

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  • Go Navy
    Senior Member
    • Jul 2008
    • 2171

    The Israeli Tavor TAR-21

    According to Gun Tests Magazine (which accepts no advertising and is the only objective firearms pub I'm aware of), the Israeli Army has now fully adopted this battle rifle, having transitioned away from the M-16 type platform.

    The reason this is interesting to me is that the Israelis are more or less in a constant state of armed conflict and have a highly trained and competent Army with an outstanding track record. So, the decision to transition from the M-16 and move to a really modern design had huge consequences for them.

    As we all know, the U.S. military itself has seriously considered replacing our main battle rifle, off and on, for some time. Oversimplifying, what seems to happen is that the suits in the Pentagon block it with budget issues; now, under the Obama regime, which seems to want to adopt a quasi-isolationist posture in the world, and divert military funding to social programs, it looks like our Army will have to keep living with a 50 year old (albeit improved) battle rifle.

    I'm not being critical of the M-16 itself, but I'm saying that in my view our Army deserves the very best, up to date soldier's rifle and caliber we can give them, and we ought to get on with developing and fielding the replacement. To me, this is as important, if not more important, than the next new F-35 strike fighter.

    Apparently the Israelis made that decision as to their own Army. Also, it appears the Israelis developed absolute clarity about their requirements in developing the TAR-21. They seem to feel that urban combat will constitute a sufficient percentage of future fighting that the soldier's rifle should be optimized for that scenario, not for 800 meter shots across Afghan mountain ridges, or 500 meter shots from the edge of your forest to the edge of the WWII Germans' forest. Leave that to the sniper boys, and every company now has embedded snipers as I understand it.

    Some features: The TAR-21 is a gas piston design, not direct gas impingement. Because it's a bullpup, it has a 16.5 or 18 inch barrel (or shorter) while still being very compact. They elected to stay with the 5.56 round and it will accept standard NATO magazines. They have conversion kits for 9mm and 5.45 Russian. It has an excellent mag release just like the U.S. M14 rifle had (no tiny button), and which is also found on the Ruger Mini-14. It has a non-reciprocating bolt handle. No forward assist, which is now an outdated idea in which you attempted to force a round that won't chamber, harder into the chamber. If said round doesn't fully chamber, then you have yourself a problem and you are not firing at the enemy until you dig out the offending round somehow. With a bolt handle, you don't attempt to chamber a failure to feed; you eject it and chamber another round and get on with the fighting, just as you would with a semi-auto pistol.

    This link below is a Wikipedia article on it which seems to be pretty accurate and thorough, although it doesn't exactly reflect that the Israeli Army, not just special forces, have standardized on this weapon. In summary, it's interesting to look at what a modern, feared Army has decided its soldiers should be carrying. I'd like to see the U.S. Army get on with developing and deploying a new design, whether it's this or something else. It doesn't have to be super high tech with all sorts of onboard electronics. You're looking at one example of the future of battle rifles for grunts.

    USN Veteran, Gun Owners of Calif. Member, NRA Life Member

    You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We'll preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on earth, or we'll sentence them to take the last step into a thousand years of darkness. (Ronald Reagan, 1964)
  • #2
    k1dude
    I need a LIFE!!
    • May 2009
    • 13194

    I personally think the creation and adoption of the Tavor by the IDF was mostly a political decision. IIRC, the Israeli's receive X amount of US aid every year and one of the strings attached is they must purchase X amount of US military goods with some of the aid money. So they would use some of it to buy US small arms. And as we all know, those aid amounts are subject to political manipulation by the US. Depending on how friendly the current US administration is to Israel affects their aid packages from year to year.

    So to prevent disruptions in the supply chain for their military, it was in their best interest to develop in-house arms to replace the aging M16. They've been making guns for decades (Galils, Uzi's, and others). They even have their own jet fighters just-in-case. So it was no surprise they eventually targeted their main battle rifle. Especially since the M16 platform is showing it's age despite improvements over the years.

    But there are plenty of other existing contenders that the IDF could have chosen from if the only criteria was a better/newer gun. Even our own special ops community often uses those other weapons depending on the mission. But the Israeli's still chose to design their own. I don't think it was because nothing out there fit the bill, I think they just didn't want to be reliant on a supply chain that could potentially and suddenly be cut-off depending on the political situation in the US or Europe. We all know that the European and American politicians have been getting less friendly to Israel.

    And is the Tavor really an improvement? Supposedly the trigger is awful, not unlike most bullpups. The weight of the rifle certainly isn't any lighter than the M16. In fact, it's heavier. Inherent accuracy isn't anything to brag about either. Its main benefits are the compact size, gas piston, and close-in weight distribution because of the bullpup design. If the trigger were far better, it was more accurate, and they could make it lighter than the M16, I might agree that it truly is a better design.

    But who knows, maybe those improvements will come in future Tavors.
    Last edited by k1dude; 09-01-2013, 11:13 AM.
    "Show me a young conservative and I'll show you a man without a heart. Show me an old liberal and I'll show you a man without a brain." - Sir Winston Churchill

    "I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice! And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue!" - Senator Barry Goldwater

    Comment

    • #3
      safety-1st
      Senior Member
      • Aug 2013
      • 1300

      Good to know we have a very well equipped and powerful ally in the region. They can be our boots on the ground while we supply the air superiority and our drones.

      Comment

      • #4
        razgriz183
        Member
        • Jan 2013
        • 121

        Business politics was more involved in the decision to keep the M4/M16

        US Army wanted a new platform since the 90's and had stopped signifcant funding and research around 2006. Colt was a huge factor in stopping the research. Systems like the fs2000 and xm8 were scrapped because colt argued that it wasn't a major improvement to current rifles and was not a smart rifle that the DoD originally asked for.

        So colt bought their way back into the us military for another 50 or so years

        Comment

        • #5
          INFAMOUS762X39
          Senior Member
          • Jan 2012
          • 1458

          Originally posted by safety-1st
          Good to know we have a very well equipped and powerful ally in the region. They can be our boots on the ground while we supply the air superiority and our drones.
          Yes, they are well equipped. You can thank US Tax payers.


          Anyways, I personally think the Tavor feels like a plastic VCR.

          Comment

          • #6
            jchen76@gmail.com
            Senior Member
            • Nov 2004
            • 2086

            As a owner of Daniel Defense AR and Tavor (16.5) model, the AR is great all purpose, but the Tavor shines in close quarter. Either rifle would do just fine for normal range/civi use. The Israelis chose the Tavor due to its reliability factor when in the desert during active operations.

            The use of STANAG pattern mags is a major plus, the Israeli army has millions of AR mags that won't need to surplus'd. The M16/M4 variant in the arsenal will probably be issued to rear-echelon troops and police.

            Yes, the Tavor trigger isn't the best compared to AR trigger we are spoiled on, but how many other different rifle variants has an average person shot? Try HK91/83 trigger, AK, FN FAL, Steyr Aug, all these battle rifles and you'll see that Tavor isn't so bad after all. There's already shops making mods to the trigger right now, the quick Tavor trigger job floating around has owners proclaiming it to be the solution to the awful trigger pull.
            Last edited by jchen76@gmail.com; 09-01-2013, 12:16 PM.

            Comment

            • #7
              Windex
              Banned
              • Jun 2010
              • 178

              I did handle a Tavor in a shop in AZ. It was heavy. However, once you put it on your shoulder it was amazing how it felt. I don't know if it's necessarily any better than the M4.

              Comment

              • #8
                Flogger23m
                Senior Member
                • Feb 2008
                • 1215

                I am sure the Tavor is a great rifle, but a few things:

                1) Small arms tech is more or less the same as it was 50 years ago. Aside from optics, NVGs + lasers nothing has changed significantly. The overall combat difference between someone with an FN FAL, AK, M16 or SCAR is probably going to be very small assuming the soldier is equipped with said improvements.

                2) The differences in tech something like the F-35 or F-22 brings to the table over the F-16/F-15C is far greater than anything small arms. How the F-35 pans out overall is still to be seen but it does incorporate to significant technology improvements over the F-16 which make a much bigger difference on the battlefield compared to any semi auto rifle produced within the past 50 years.

                3) Israel has a decently large weapons industry. Getting cheap M16/M4s is good, but they can not make a profit from them. Perhaps they can license them for sale, but it is a crowded market. The Galil sold well to various countries, and the Tavor is as well. Seems like a good business decision to make extra money.

                4) Dependence. In the 70s Israel was starting to loose ground resulting in the USA initiated a large resupply effort, including giving them A-4s and thousands of M16s. This resulted in an Oil embargo for the West. With that in mind, I am sure other countries might not be so ready to help Israel in a time of war again. With local production they do not have to worry about being resupplied by foreign sources.

                5) Israel fights local wars, which tend to be in urban areas. A bullpup makes more sense here. They know their terrian and have a limited combat area and do lots of dismounting from vehicles. The USA fights wars all over the world in all kinds of terrian; sometimes longer ranges where the shortened length is not as useful.

                Lots of other things to consider. The M16 may or may not be the best rifle out there, I don't know, but the differences between it and other similar weapons are pretty small.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Varg Vikernes
                  Veteran Member
                  • Jan 2012
                  • 2831

                  Trigger is supposed to be bad, along with every other bullpup.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Josh3239
                    Calguns Addict
                    • Dec 2006
                    • 9189

                    Well said! I'd imagine the selection of the rifle had a lot more to do with choosing a shorter rifle made in Israel. I really don't think it was much more than that. Foreign aid to Israel, I believe, neither helps Israel nor the US, it hurts both nations. Besides, Israel has a long history with the rest of the world (not just including, but particularly the USA) with arms embargos.

                    It is a great rifle for what it is meant to do really. Better than the AR? Not according to an overwhelming amount of reviews I've read from American and Canadian Tavor owners.

                    Originally posted by k1dude
                    I personally think the creation and adoption of the Tavor by the IDF was mostly a political decision. IIRC, the Israeli's receive X amount of US aid every year and one of the strings attached is they must purchase X amount of US military goods with some of the aid money. So they would use some of it to buy US small arms. And as we all know, those aid amounts are subject to political manipulation by the US. Depending on how friendly the current US administration is to Israel affects their aid packages from year to year.

                    So to prevent disruptions in the supply chain for their military, it was in their best interest to develop in-house arms to replace the aging M16. They've been making guns for decades (Galils, Uzi's, and others). They even have their own jet fighters just-in-case. So it was no surprise they eventually targeted their main battle rifle. Especially since the M16 platform is showing it's age despite improvements over the years.

                    But there are plenty of other existing contenders that the IDF could have chosen from if the only criteria was a better/newer gun. Even our own special ops community often uses those other weapons depending on the mission. But the Israeli's still chose to design their own. I don't think it was because nothing out there fit the bill, I think they just didn't want to be reliant on a supply chain that could potentially and suddenly be cut-off depending on the political situation in the US or Europe. We all know that the European and American politicians have been getting less friendly to Israel.

                    And is the Tavor really an improvement? Supposedly the trigger is awful, not unlike most bullpups. The weight of the rifle certainly isn't any lighter than the M16. In fact, it's heavier. Inherent accuracy isn't anything to brag about either. Its main benefits are the compact size, gas piston, and close-in weight distribution because of the bullpup design. If the trigger were far better, it was more accurate, and they could make it lighter than the M16, I might agree that it truly is a better design.

                    But who knows, maybe those improvements will come in future Tavors.

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Go Navy
                      Senior Member
                      • Jul 2008
                      • 2171

                      I didn't mean to suggest that the U.S. should reduce emphasis on the F-35; the opposite, in fact. We really need that bird to replace the aging F/A-18, F-16 etc. My main point is that the U.S. Army should be given a green light for an M4/M16 replacement. It won't happen under the Obama regime, though.

                      I agree that Israel wisely has to have its own independent sources of arms incl. armor and aircraft. So, they presumably started with a clean sheet of paper and ended up with the TAR-21. They could have easily negotiated a license, if it's even necessary given the limited life span of patents, to manufacture M4/M16 rifles in Israel until Kingdom come if they wanted to. They made a studied decision to move away from that aging platform. That's the part that is interesting to me.
                      USN Veteran, Gun Owners of Calif. Member, NRA Life Member

                      You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We'll preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on earth, or we'll sentence them to take the last step into a thousand years of darkness. (Ronald Reagan, 1964)

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        INFAMOUS762X39
                        Senior Member
                        • Jan 2012
                        • 1458

                        Originally posted by Go Navy
                        I didn't mean to suggest that the U.S. should reduce emphasis on the F-35; the opposite, in fact. We really need that bird to replace the aging F/A-18, F-16 etc. My main point is that the U.S. Army should be given a green light for an M4/M16 replacement. It won't happen under the Obama regime, though.
                        In my opinion, U.S should kill the deeply troubled F-35A program and transfer the funds and recoverable technology to future F-22A and F-22C production. The economies of scale will result in a lower unit cost, saving around $50 to $70 million per aircraft.

                        The Sukhoi PAK-FA will likely cost half the price of an F-35 and be fully operational that much sooner.

                        The Army was given the green light for a new Individual Carbine. On 13 June 2013, the U.S. Army formally cancelled the Individual Carbine competition. $30+ million was being spent on testing. A 12–18-month testing phase commenced and over 1 million rounds were to be fired.
                        Last edited by INFAMOUS762X39; 09-01-2013, 3:56 PM.

                        Comment

                        • #13
                          Go Navy
                          Senior Member
                          • Jul 2008
                          • 2171

                          Yes, but why did the Army cancel the competition?
                          USN Veteran, Gun Owners of Calif. Member, NRA Life Member

                          You and I have a rendezvous with destiny. We'll preserve for our children this, the last best hope of man on earth, or we'll sentence them to take the last step into a thousand years of darkness. (Ronald Reagan, 1964)

                          Comment

                          • #14
                            starsnuffer
                            Senior Member
                            • Apr 2011
                            • 2212

                            It's a good, idiot proof gun for a conscript army.

                            -W

                            Comment

                            • #15
                              starsnuffer
                              Senior Member
                              • Apr 2011
                              • 2212

                              Originally posted by Go Navy
                              Yes, but why did the Army cancel the competition?
                              The Army canceled the last two decades worth of primary arms development programs. It has a lot to do with US companies inability to develop a superior weapon and submit it to these competitions and the lobbying preventing a foreign company from supplying the MBR (even though FN is now the main supplier of the M16/M4 platform)

                              -W

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