Picking AR Optic

[penguin0123]

So I finally got into the AR game and want help picking an optic. I have tried to breakdown my requirements to evaluate options.

I would love to:

• hear your personal, hands-on evaluation of products I looked at below.
• hear your evaluation of my scenarios and whether they are reasonable.
• hear about any gadgets I missed in my search for optical nirvana.

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Mission Statement
TEOTWAWKI rifle for 50m-200m in sunlight, but would like darkroom + white light capabilities.

Distance
This rifle covers 50m-200m. At 200m, I expect to take headshots (e.g., threat behind cover). Anything farther than that, I'll consider as area fire. 0m-15m is covered by my handgun as I prefer house clearing with my handgun. I am ambi and the smaller target I provide by switching strong side is worth any ballistic pluses a long gun offers over a handgun (and I'm not a door kicker who expects to face ElQueso all hopped up and wearing armor). As you may have noticed, there is a hole 15m-50m. I am looking to either fill that in with a second optic (ala SpectreDR or ACOG+RMR), or leave it to my better half and her 12 Gauge.

Lighting
I expect most of my needs will be in full sunlight, or from a shaded position looking into sunlight. However, I must be prepared for the low light contingency where I may be using a mounted white light and need to see the reticule for snapshots <50m. While I prefer to clear a house with a handgun, it is NOT my default position to put away the rifle when the sun goes down. I am not looking for hostage rescue accuracy at those distances, merely COM accuracy.

Personal Remarks
I'm no stranger to BAC. Also, I expect my engagements to be brining the rifle up from low ready (or even an unready position) and snap fire. I prefer not to mount a second set of sights at an angle as I'm a lefty and my better half is a righty. Ambi is a theme we religiously kept.


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Chapter 1
Initial Selection
Because of the distance outlined above, I would like a magnified optic for target ID. BDC is nice, but not required as a 300m zero puts you close enough. I am also leaning towards battery powered optics to cover my low light contingencies, and reticule washout is a huge worry for me (not sure if justified or not). AA would be the preferred form factor as they are cheap and easy to procure.

Given these thoughts, I eliminated FO/Tritium reflex sights such as Mepro M21 and Trijicon RX30. EODeadBatteries get no love from me either (my astigmatism gives me a 65moa smear).


* VXR is paired with ADM recon mount.

Aimpoint+3x
Total Weight is 18oz which brings me close to VXR weight. Not that much lighter than ELCAN either. The FOV is comparable to other optics, but for some reason, I just feel really claustrophobic behind it. Maybe because of the thick edge around the magnifier. I would take other options before this.


Fixed Power
TA33 is light, has great eye relief, and by all accounts has good eye box. If it weren't for the washout possibilities, this would be great. Maybe I can ghetto rig a set of irons on top of the scope for those times since BUIS will not work thru the glass. Has anyone tried using the tube as a giant ghost ring?

TA02 is everything I want except for the eye relief. Call to Trijicon CS confirmed that if I move my head back, I'll merely loose FOV. I'll have to be off quite a bit to get image falloff.

TA11 is a 50/50 mix of TA33 and TA02, but for me, it seems like the mixing didn't buy anything as a standalone option.

Spectre OS4X is everything I want the TA02 to be, except for the 1/3N battery. The ghetto set of irons on top will serve for my purpose of filling in 0m-50m.


Variable Power
SpectreDR gives me best of both worlds plus ruggedness. But I'm still saddled with the 1/3N battery and the atrocious weight. If this came in AA, I would gladly deal with it.

VCOG is not yet available. The 6x is nice, but I give up light gathering ability over the SpectreDR (smaller objective). The AA battery life is also nothing spectacular but at least comparable to ELCAN.

TR24 is on paper worse than Burris MTAC but more expensive and has the chance of reticule washout. I'm not thrilled.

Burris MTAC looks promising, but I'm wondering about battery life. I'm also not happy about the 2hr auto off function. In life after the bomb, I may not know when I'll need the gun, so I actually want the dot to be on at all times. Battery life is tough to find, and the CR 2032 form factor doesn't thrill me (thou I understand why they used it) .

VXR Patrol looks on paper worse than MTAC. And if battery life of the VXR is comparable to MTAC, then I won't be buying either. If I were using this as a 3-gun rig, then popping in a new button battery before every match is fine. If I were a cop and this is on the patrol rifle, then I'd swap out batteries every so often and write off taxes as work expense. If I were in a Katrina situation, I would be SOL.

Good to know fixed FSB wont' block any of these optics.

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Chapter 2
Lets look at Batteries
ELCAN's 1/3N batteries are not used in other accessories unlike CR123 in a weapon light, or AA in anything else known to man. The etched reticule ensure function after battery end-of-life, but that would be no different than a VXR without batteries or an ACOG without any illumination at all. At this point, I'm letting the ELCAN go (with a heavy heart, as Leica rangefinders cameras remain one of my favorites, next to the Nikon F2).

So I'll accept CR2032 for argument's sake, and lets see what it buys me. CR2032 is small enough that I could pack quite a few away inside the pistol grip. We'll use VXR as the catch all for 1-4 variable scopes, and compare it to an ACOG+RMR combo. ACOG+RMR isn't a variable scope obviously, but it does offer the 1 or 4x choice. I just don't see myself using an intermediate 2x or 3x of the VXR. ACOG will be a FO/Tritium model as I want a dual power solution if I'm using battery RMR. I would pick the TA11 over the TA31 for the extra freedom of movement in case I get into a contorted shooting position in close, and cannot get inside the RMR eyebox. I'll throw a killflash in front of the TA11 in an attempt to darken the image and make the reticule pop even more in low light. For cheekweld concerns, I add a riser to get better weld with RMR, and I'll just press my cheeks (quit giggling...) into the stock more for the scoped shot. The reasoning is that if I have time to go to the scope, I have time to put my eyes in the right place.

Variable Power vs. ACOG+RMR
I did some movement drills with my Garand, the rear sight wings of which are roughly the width of the RMR, walking forward and sideways while looking down sights. I have no trouble keeping the rear aperture and front sights aligned (much smaller than the RMR window), so I don't expect to loose the red dot when shooting on the move with the RMR.

Now onto the theoretical evaluation of VXR vs ACOG+RMR.
Battery Life
In terms of battery life, RMR beats VXR hands down especially with the auto brightness adjustment of the RMR.
Eve Relief
VXR wins here 4in to 2.4in. And I suspect situational awareness is better with VXR vs. TA11. However, I would argue RMR has better "heads up" situational awareness overall.
Weight
Both comparable around 20oz.
Price
VXR beats the ACOG any day. One can indeed buy a metric sh_t ton of CR2032 with the price difference.

Lets translate the pros/cons above into ConOps.
VXR
With the VXR, the limitations are not optical or weight. It is the illumination. The ConOps of the scope would be to leave illumination off and just used the etched reticule (perfectly useable) in the day time. When I know I'm heading for close encounters or when the sun goes down, I must remember to turn on the illumination and set the zoom to 1x. Even then, I only have 300hours of battery life. Let us assume 12hrs of darkness per day, and after the 2hr auto off, I never move the rifle again (e.g., get thru the night without dogs going off), This would mean a 2hr consumption of battery every evening. This translates to 150 days, or 5 months. Remember this is under ideal conditions (weather included). To equal the RMR runtime of 4 years, I must carry 9 extra batteries. Maybe troublesome, but definitely doable.

ACOG+RMR
Leave the RMR running on auto brightness adjustment, and if the batteries conk out unexpectedly, use the TA11 BAC. Changing magnification is dealt with by shifting head position. The one big plus I see is the dissimilar redundancy. As a bit of tangent, western countries build redundancy by using two of the same box; soviets build redundancy by using two different designs that perform the same function (e.g., electrical actuator and hydraulic actuator both connected to the same hinge). The joke is that the Soviets don't trust either design team fully. At any rate, the ACOG+RMR combo gives you two sights that are independent, and if either one goes down, you do not have to get out of the fight and dismount your optic to bring up the BUIS. In addition, the TA11 reticule might get burnout in the sunlight, or bloom so much as to block the target.

But you pay a high price for this redundancy and combat proven equipment. The price of ACOG+RMR is somewhere between twice to thrice the price of a VXR. So theoretically, you could buy two VXRs and have similar redundancy. And you also pay by having an RMR that is subjectively more likely to snag.

Last thought is that with the ACOG, one might get better resale value if something better comes up in a few years. Indeed, I can first buy the TA11 and evaluate it. I may even find it adequate without the RMR especially if I practice low light drills with the mounted light and laser.

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Chapter 3
Thoughts after hands-on examination of a TA31+RMR
The eye-relief issue on the TA31 isn't as bad as I expected. The combo is perfectly useable for me. However, I don't think it justifies the price premium over a 1-4 variable power scope. If I get really paranoid about must have a constant-on red dot, I can always piggy back an RMR on top later. I have reached the conclusion that 1-4x variable is the best option.

By buying into the 1-4 variables, I have these limitations: weight of 20z (double that of a TA33), and 300hrs of average illumination time. So that means I must pack away a few extra batteries. Speaking of batteries, since I'm committed to packing them away inside the pistol grip, does this bring the ELCAN back into play? Yes.

The ELCAN is slightly heavier than the VXR but shorter eye relief. Both have roughly equivalent exit pupil at 1x, but the ELCAN has a much bigger exit at 4x. In fact, the VXR has a smaller exit pupil than the ACOG at the 4x end... This means head position is critical when magnified. Those of you with the VXR (e.g., AC89), can you confirm? The ELCAN also has longer battery life, but no auto off function. So if something goes bump in the night, I can grab the VXR and it'll wake the illumination up, but I have to leave the ELCAN running all night. Without illumination in daylight, I feel the Leupold SPR is faster than the ELCAN. Also, the mil system on the Leupold gives better theoretical accuracy in ranging than the standia on the ELCAN.

At this point, these are the candidates I'm considering:
ELCAN SpectreDR
Leupold VXR Patrol
Burris MTAC / TAC-30

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Next Chapter continues on Page 2, Post 75. Link: http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/s...4&postcount=75

[nitroxdiver]

If you can afford the Elcan, you will be most satisfied. It is a wonderful optic.


Sent from classified location using Tapatalk.

[jasonnorcal]

Aimpoint T1 or compM3 if they even still make it . You can add a magnifier later if you feel the need. You should be able to discern friend/foe out to 200yds without it. Elcans are HUGE!

[Raralith]

Personally, I would not use a magnifier if my intended range was 50m-200m, and would stick with a solid red dot for fast target acquisition which is why I bought an Aimpoint. It's not going to get you an marksman awards at 200m, but it'll punch good groups in a silhouette.

If you are considering doing CQC like house clearing, I'd consider getting rid of the handgun idea and build an AR pistol with an Eotech or Aimpoint. Laws will be the last thing you'll be worrying about ** so throw on a lower with a stock, use those rebuilds for it's intended purposes, and enjoy the much added firepower.

** This is not legal advice, please do not take it as such.

[mixicus]

Trijicons are a great option for your parameters. Without the need/desire to engage in CQB with this rig, the Aimpoint and EOTech options may not be the best option. Mainly due to the extra wieght and bulk of the magnifiers considering you don't plan on using only the unmaginfied dot. The 1x and holo/reflex style is set for CQB-both eyes open-quick but good enough style. which you aren't in need of with this rig.

Another avenue (since you asked) is to consider am illuminated reticle variable such as a Burris MTAC (and put an MGM throw lever on it) or the Leopuld VX-R line. A 200yd shot with a 4x is straight forward and should give reasonable traget ID plus the wider field of view at the lower magnification.

You would be well served by checking out a 3-gun scope set-up.

[totus44]

Question, if you'd consider the TA31 and 6 month battery changes - then does that reopen consideration of the EOTech?

Presently building 2 (his and hers) with similar mission goals. With go with the EOTech HHSII on one and a Comp4s + 3x scope in LaRue mounts on the the other. Both work ergonomically for me and help my 40-something eyesight (1.25 readers).

Also looked at ACOG and Mark4 HMAR, but those would be better suited for another caliber.

Thanks for sharing your decision tree, yours was a very insightful post.

[atolax25]

If you can afford the Elcan, you will be most satisfied. It is a wonderful optic.

^this. I have an Elcan too and love it. Alternatively, there are other, cheaper 1-4 or 1-6 optics on the market that will let you shoot within your intended range and beyond.

[G21Shooter]

I have messed with ARs for quite a while and have tried just about every optic option out there. Aimpoints+magnifier, 3x ACOGs, 3-9 scopes, 1-4 scopes.

By far my favorite AR15 optic option is a 1-4x variable. I really like the Burris MTAC in a LaRue LT104 mount. If you want something nicer get a Trijicon Accupoint 1-4x.

1-4x scopes are the most versatile and fun at the range, close range and long range you are covered.

[SmallShark]

i was going to make a very similar post. i just bought an ar rifle and 2 lowers today.

it looks like EOTech HHS II is very promising

[MrPlink]

Another for for the elcan. That is one bad mama jama

[mpncc]

the acog is always one to look at and a burris mtac is a great AR optic I know its sort of under the price range you are looking at but it really is great worth a look at anyways

[G21Shooter]

the acog is always one to look at and a burris mtac is a great AR optic I know its sort of under the price range you are looking at but it really is great worth a look at anyways

+1 The Burris TAC30 or MTAC are a great optics option for ARs. Despite their lower price, I would consider them comparable to higher end optics due to their quality.

[sholling]

Take a look at the Burris TAC 30 ($350) and the Vortex PST ($500), both are 1-4x24 and both have true 1x magnification. If budget is a bit higher then add the Weaver Tactical 1-5x24 ($700) and SWFA's 1-6x24 ($1000) to your list.

If you just want something good at a bargain price and don't need a fancy lighted reticle then look at a Weaver V3 1-3x20. The Weaver is a very good quality scope for less than $200.

[EvolutionGSR]

I think what you want is the Trijicon VCOG

[pluke the 2]

i love having an aimpoint pro and using a 6x magnifer with a swing out. i find it convenient for the situations you described above and it wasn't super expensive. good groups with zero @ 50yards despite my inexperience.