Featureless Build - AFG type question

[merlechris]

I've read interesting opinions regarding the AFG being risky, but does anyone have an opinion about mounting an Exile Hammerhead grip to the forestock? If it's not a pistol grip behind the trigger, can it be one in front?

[jonc]

I think it's way past grey area...

Good luck

[SA227driver]

All I know is that I don't want to be the guinea pig test case.

[Chaos47]

There are very different definitions for "pistol grip" and "forward pistol grip".

978.20 Definitions
(c) "forward pistol grip" means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger.

(d) "pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon”
means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger
hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the
exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

1 I do not understand how you could even mount one as a forward grip without a ton of modification and fabrication.
2 The hammer head is designed to not protrude beneath the action of the weapon and also make the placement of the web of the hand higher then the exposed portion of trigger. That is why it is not a pistol grip.
3 The definition for forward pistol grip is very different then the definition of pistol grip. The hammerhead was not designed to fit that definition.
4 I would not recommend doing this and I doubt Exile would recommend doing it either

Remember having just one feature makes a legal featureless build into an illegal "Assault Weapon". IMO not worth the risk at all...

[Exile Machine]

Interesting question. We'd be interested to see your proposed mounting scheme; have you got a sketch or a crude photoshop? Curious to see exactly how (and where) you intend to mount it, and to what extent you'd have to modify the product to attach it.

Bear in mind that the Hammerhead CA-legal AR-15 Grip is not made of some exotic legislation-resistant polymer(TM) that renders it not a pistol grip. It's the geometry of the product that allows you to build a rifle that conforms to the law.

[Fate]

As Chaos47 mentioned, the definition of a forward pistol grip is different than pistol grip in CA law. FPG has no "yellow line" like Exile is showing as part of the definition.

Hammerhead as a forward grip on a featureless rifle, if you can indeed get a pistol type grasp on it = Assault Weapon in CA. Now if you're running it mounted flush kinda like an AFG I don't see much of a problem with legality as you can't grab the bottom part like you can with an AFG. That said, it's uncharted legal waters.

Alternatively, a handstop is not a grip and far, far away from the grey area.

[Fate]

Most pistol grip mount adapters are angled:



Using a Hammerhead on such a mount would create a forward pistol grip.

[Nick5811]

on a related topic...

Btw, thanks to FATE for the outstanding work in the 2010 thread regarding the comments during the legislation period when our VFG's were banned...

I'm seeking clarification on the issue of something like the MAKO MWG (magwell grip) being used. According to the comments, a mag-HOLDER forward of the trigger would be a grip, but not the magazine well itself as was opined by one other member in that thread.

Also, as stated in the other thread in the comments to/from DOJ, a bipod is not a grip, but a grip with a retractable bipod would be...so do we know of any bipods that have been made for this purpose?

Is there any newer guidance as to if this setup would be legal on a featureless rifle?

I'm planning to convert my BB AR to use an MMG so I'm trying to hammer out the details.

[starsnuffer]

There are no laws that will tell you what IS allowed, only laws that will tell you what is not allowed. Read them and decide for yourself what you want to do.

-W

[HK Dave]

My God WHY?! Just get an AFG.

[Fate]

Btw, thanks to FATE for the outstanding work in the 2010 thread regarding the comments during the legislation period when our VFG's were banned...

Thanks for the props. As one of the early adopters of the featureless platform, it was hard to figure out the law as there wasn't much groundwork to work with. After doing the research, I tried to spread the knowledge and make that time investment pay off for others. Last thing I ever want to see is someone get arrested for a not quite featureless build.

I'm seeking clarification on the issue of something like the MAKO MWG (magwell grip) being used. According to the comments, a mag-HOLDER forward of the trigger would be a grip, but not the magazine well itself as was opined by one other member in that thread.

The Mako MWG suffers from several things that push it into the FPG definition under CA law. First, it's a grip. Second, you CAN wrap your thumb around the magwell and attain that evil pistol style grasp. Those two things make it a CA-FPG. The rulemaking documents discount the mag well alone as a FPG. However adding a thing called a grip (even if it's just a bump) to the magwell would change its status.

Also, as stated in the other thread in the comments to/from DOJ, a bipod is not a grip, but a grip with a retractable bipod would be...so do we know of any bipods that have been made for this purpose?

Is there any newer guidance as to if this setup would be legal on a featureless rifle?

Grip pods are illegal. However, you can use a bipod like the GG&G 1245 and be legal. Here's some info:

GG&G Extreme Heavy Duty Swivel Bipod (GGG-1245)

The GG&G Quick-Detach Heavy Duty Bipod offers a greater range of swivel than previous versions. In addition to a much stronger pivot mechanism, the latest design of the GG&G QD Heavy Duty Bipodimage affords 25 degrees of cant in either direction of center. Not only does this provide the GG&G Bipod with better rough terrain adjustability, but this pivoting capability allows the deployed bipod leg to be used as a vertical foregrip if required for rapid transition. The GG&G HD Swivel Bipod features the Accucam system for easy removal and adjustment, letting you attach it even to worn or out-of-spec dovetails.

[Fate]

My God WHY?! Just get an AFG.

Because an AFG on a featureless build is more than likely illegal. That's why. But we're always looking for somebody to be a test case to know for sure. Is that you John Wayne?

[HK Dave]

No Fate, they call me BATMAN.

[HK Dave]

Wait... just realized you said John Wayne, not Bruce Wayne. HEH

[Nick5811]

The Mako MWG suffers from several things that push it into the FPG definition under CA law. First, it's a grip. Second, you CAN wrap your thumb around the magwell and attain that evil pistol style grasp. Those two things make it a CA-FPG. The rulemaking documents discount the mag well alone as a FPG. However adding a thing called a grip (even if it's just a bump) to the magwell would change its status.

Grip pods are illegal. However, you can use a bipod like the GG&G 1245 and be legal. Here's some info:

Again, thanks for the info. I'm still not sure that I agree with your stance on the MAKO, but I'm not rich enough to be able to afford that battle should I be wrong.

I would agree with you about a million % if we were talking about THIS one: http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/...L._AA1500_.jpg per the definitions given in the comments you linked to in the other thread.

Using the same info regarding muzzle breaks vs. flash hiders, that bipod you linked to would be unlawful since it is advertised as being a potential grip.

Oh well. I'm gonna keep shopping on Amazon for gun parts to make my featureless rifle a reality and use all these 30-round mags I've got.