Trigger pulling: Bolt action vs AR15

[EvolutionGSR]

Hello, I just assembled my first accurate ar-15 spr style with SS barrel. I am having a hard time being a consistent shot as I was with a rem700 bolt action. With the 700, it was a .308, ar is a 5.56, if that makes a huge difference. With the rem 700, all my shots would touch being about .5-.75 moa. Loaded one at a time. Using Fed GMM. With the AR, using BH 77grn, ill get 2 or 3 shots sub moa, then ill get a flier about 1-1.5 inches away, then a shot back into the first sub moa 2-3 first shots, and then another filer, so on until the mag empties. I never had this consistency problem with the 700. Both are using front bipod and rear sandbag. Rem had a Leupold 4-16 precision rifle line (looks like its not made anymore) and the ar has a nxs 2.5-10. My first instinct is that i just need to practice consistency. Once I get a good 3 shot group (once i got a good 4 shot group) maybe i get nervous and think im going to screw up the group? Is it most likely my trigger pull with the AR? Any pointers or recommendations that someone lookimg from the outside can tell me?

Thanks.

[SocomM4]

What trigger are you using, i would suggest a nice 2-stage trigger and see how you do. Try different bullet weights .

[ripcurlksm]

factors could be:
- bolts have no moving parts when a shot is fired = more consistent
- trigger
- 556 smaller round, wind factor?
- your ar has a lower max power scope, which *could* make things a little off if youre not exact

drop in a match trigger and keep shooting

[Kappy]

It's likely a need for more practice.

Two different guns have two different triggers. Unload the rifle and really compare the triggers with some dry fires.

Does the gun like 77gn bullets? Perhaps you should try different bullets. Even if you're matching the twist to the bullet, it may like something else. My AR should like a heavy bullet (70gn or so) but it seems to shoot best with a 40gn bullet. Even 55gn pushes me almost out of MOA grouping.

I can't comment on your optics.

I hope that helps.

[joelogic]

I think this is why bolt actions still rule precision shooting.

[EvolutionGSR]

The trigger is a Geiselle SSA, forgot to mention. I prefer the SSA weight to the Ssa-e weight. Ill try some lighter bullet weights next time, thanks for suggestion.

[ocabj]

Are you calling your shots true? If so, then it's a rifle or ammo issue, and not operator issue.

[VooDooV]

possabilities,, 5.56 barrel heats faster, AR barrel is thinner then Rem 700.

[EvolutionGSR]

Ocabj, what does calling shots true mean?

I did some googling, trying to understand what you meant. I can feel right when the trigger breaks if I had a bad pull. Im right handed, and I feel the jerk to the left sometimes. I'm laying prone, and pulling the rifle back into my shoulder. Should I not be pulling the rifle? I no longer own the 700, so I can't compare what I did with it to what I do now.

[FLIGHT762]

Ocabj, what does calling shots true mean?

I think you just answered his question.


He's asking you if can call your shots, knowing where your sights are in relationship to you target/ aiming point when the trigger breaks. Knowing when you throw one or know when you are on your target perfectly when the trigger breaks.

[EvolutionGSR]

I think you just answered his question.


He's asking you if can call your shots, knowing where your sights are in relationship to you target/ aiming point when the trigger breaks. Knowing when you throw one or know when you are on your target perfectly when the trigger breaks.

Thanks, looks like I wasn't done editing by the time you answered. If I can at least narrow it down to it being my trigger pull, which honestly I hope that's what it is, I'll be forced to go practice more...haha.

[ocabj]

Yes, FLIGHT762 indicated what I meant.

You need to be able to say where exactly your shot is going to hit before you even check your spotting scope. I'll admit, I'm not perfect like some shooters. Good shooters will be able to say, "Just inside the outer 10-ring, 4:30" or, "solid X, 9:00" (on an NRA SR target, 200 yard High Power). I can usually call the score and location, but I'm not good enough to call the degree in which it's in a given scoring ring (like whether or not it hit the line between X and 10, or how far from the line the shot is).

Anyway, being able to call shots is critical in shot correction. If you are inaccurate in your shot call, you'll never be able to correct your followup shot effectively (or if you even need to correct your next shot), nor will you be able to determine if your firearm/ammo is at fault, or you, for a given shot.

Personally, I'd stretch the push the distance a little for testing ammo and equipment. 300 yards is a good balanced distance to be able to determine ammo performance in a gun.

[HK Dave]

How tight is the lower to upper fit? How is your trigger release and follow up?

[EvolutionGSR]

Thanks OC, i have access to 200 yard paper, ill try further out and buy some NRA targets.

Upper to lower fit is fine. My pull is always held for a slight moment, then released.

[Army]

You're not getting a flyer, you're bending your rifle. AR15/M16's are palstic and aluminum, they are simply not as stiff or structurally strong as an all steel rifle bolted/strapped/pinned to a solid wood stock. So:

Lose the bipod and rear bag (your weight on the buttstock is bending the rifle between the small support points of the bag and bi-pod). Insert a 30 round length magazine, and place the end of magazine on bench...this is your new rest. Non-firing hand pulls back on magazine well, BUT does NOT grip the well, only pulls the rifle to your shoulder. Your fingers should be relaxed, with only the palm area on the well.

Firing hand grips high (handgun style grip) so there is no light, or space, between the web and the buttstock bottom. Shooting finger goes far into the trigger guard, using the second pad or joint to add pressure to the trigger (you have more and larger muscles there, making trigger manipulation easier and more controlled). Keep the trigger to the rear after the shot, only releasing when the recoil and noise has ended.

If you only have 20/10/5 round size magazines, use a sand bag to set the magazine onto to raise the rifle to your eye.

This will eliminate nearly all outside influences to the dynamics of the firing rifle and allow it to flex and bend itself naturally, but almost the same every shot. It is impossible for you to hold the rifle the exact same way when supported by bags or a bipod, as you cannot calculate the same weight or pressure you put on the rifle for each shot.

The magazine rest eliminates almost all lateral movement, and the rear pressure and high grip remove almost all horizontal movement. Granted, it is not a perfectly steady as everything bagged up, but you've taken away all the bad things about bags too.

This method only works well with Ar/m16 rifles. Normal fully supported guns need not apply.