Shooting question

[SDBlaster]

I was shooting my AR yesterday at about 75 yards (standing and sitting) and noticed that I am pulling my shots to the right a little. I believe I am doing it when I squeeze the trigger I pull it right a little. I started to compensate and started aiming a little to the left to ring the steel. I have a 2 stage trigger and was using my eotech (my eotech is sighted in corectly @100 yards). Any suggestions on what I am doing wrong and how to correct it??? Thank you

[Army]

Don't hold the handguards, instead, pull back--without gripping--the magazine well into your shoulder. Spell "p-r-e-s-s" as you add pressure to the trigger (that's as fast as you need to pull the trigger. Any faster, and you run the risk of yanking the muzzle off target).

The supporting the front of the rifle is ancient military marksmanship that does not apply to the M16/AR15 platform. Issue weapons prior to the M16 all had great hunks of wood strapped to the barrels. Putting normal pressure on those fore-ends wouldn't move anything. The M/AR barrels are NOT suppported by the forend or heavy stocks, but screwed to the receiver. ANY pressure on the handguards will easily redirect the barrel.

If prone, use a 30 round magazine as the support...it will not alter feed patterns...while pulling back on the mag well. Use as much finger as you can comfortably stuff inside the trigger, don't bother with using only the first pad or point of the finger, but the second pad or even the second joint. Use ALL the hand muscles to press the trigger, not just the tiny ones at the tip.

Sounds like everything is wrong about this style, but throw away the old paradigm about shooting, and learn to shoot the M/AR in this better way. You will shoot better...trust me, I'm from the government

[G60]

Is any part of your trigger finger touching anything except the trigger?

[NorCalK9.com]

Easiest thing to do without huge explanation is this
Slow depress the trigger rearward and be surprised by the bang.
Also are you flinching in anticipation of the recoil?

[russ69]

...noticed that I am pulling my shots to the right a little. I believe I am doing it when I squeeze the trigger I pull it right a little. I started to compensate and started aiming a little to the left to ring the steel...

Make sure you are using the fleshy part of your finger tip and you are pulling straight back.

[Drivedabizness]

I have to disagree with Army - a lot.

"Use as much finger as you can comfortably stuff inside the trigger, don't bother with using only the first pad or point of the finger, but the second pad or even the second joint. Use ALL the hand muscles to press the trigger, not just the tiny ones at the tip."

Umm WRONG! (what has evidently worked for you has been shown NOT to work for the vast majority of other people - and is absolutely NOT what is taught by the service/competitive teams out there)

The farther you get to the end of the lever, the more leverage you have. That's not to say you use the tip - you use the part of your finger that allows you to pull it straight to the rear without disturbing the sights.

Milking your whole hand is a recipe for exactly the problem the OP mentioned. The ONLY muscles that should be moving are those that move your finger straight back. Otherwise you end up fighting the gun/milking the grip.

[SDBlaster]

My finger is not touching anything but the trigger (2 stage) and I don't think I am anticipating recoil, but anything is possible since I am a novice shooter. I will try pulling from the magazine well into my shoulder as last time I was shooting I seemed to be more stable holding my ar from the from of my rifle length free float rail. I think I was using the correct part of my finger to pull the trigger as well but I will pay more attention to where I am placing my finger on the trigger. I was I was shooting all my shots close , but as we know close only counts in horeshoes and hand grenades. Again, thank you for your help and suggestions.

[NOTARPilot]

I have to disagree with Army - a lot.

"Use as much finger as you can comfortably stuff inside the trigger, don't bother with using only the first pad or point of the finger, but the second pad or even the second joint. Use ALL the hand muscles to press the trigger, not just the tiny ones at the tip."

Umm WRONG! (what has evidently worked for you has been shown NOT to work for the vast majority of other people - and is absolutely NOT what is taught by the service/competitive teams out there)

The farther you get to the end of the lever, the more leverage you have. That's not to say you use the tip - you use the part of your finger that allows you to pull it straight to the rear without disturbing the sights.

Milking your whole hand is a recipe for exactly the problem the OP mentioned. The ONLY muscles that should be moving are those that move your finger straight back. Otherwise you end up fighting the gun/milking the grip.

I gotta agree with this^^^^. I don't know anyone who teaches this or shoots well how Army is recommending

[G60]

You'll find this article useful. Actually, reading the entire archives will be enlightening as well.

http://artoftherifle.blogspot.com/2011/10/trigger-control.html

[Army]

You guys are not looking outside the box. The AR platform is physically different than battle rifles of before. The fingertip method works perfect for rifles that have a wrist area that is more in-line with the action, which forces you to not touch the stock in order to have a good trigger pull.

The M/AR does not have that problem. The pistol grip already removes any stock-rub, putting your index finger in a more natural/ergonomic position. Also, there is no grip/hold transition when prone, sitting, or in the assault. Hold it the same way at all times.

Point your finger. Now slowly bend it in as if you are pulling a trigger. Notice the wide arc the tip makes...now notice the MUCH shorter and the MUCH less severe arc the second pad and/or joint makes. That much smaller movement is what you take advantage of when putting much more finger inside the trigger. Less muscle is used to pull at the second pad (better fulcrum point), which means you have more control of the tension and speed of the pull. Using this method also results in much less hand movement at the trigger break.

The barrel is no longer strapped to a stiff piece of wood, which nearly negates any side or upward pressures from a tight sling or sandbags. Rifles, since the military marksmanship manuals were written, have all had this construction.....except the M16/AR15. New paradigm, new methods. This requires you to accept a new method of shooting the M/AR, which I presented to you.

Yes, this is new thought, only a couple-few years old. A well educated and highly qualified group of Army rifle instructors and competitors (right here in California) sat down for many weeks of bullets-downrange-testing and evaluation and concluded that the marksmanship program currently being used, that was developed in 1903 when the Springfield was adopted, has been outdated 50 years ago when the M/AR16 came on line....because the rifle was not mechanically the same.

Try it. If you don't like it, fine. But if you give it an honest attempt, you will find that your accuracy has increased at all iron sight ranges. We took a brand new private, fresh from AIT who had barely managed to qualify with 24 hits, showed her this new method, had her practice for a while....then had her making CALLED headshots at 400m with issue iron sights.

It really does work

[Drivedabizness]

Even assuming your "use the second joint" theory had some merit - which it doesn't - your "milk the whole hand" approach is a well-demonstrated recipe for failure and a known item to coach against, especially with a pistol grip.

Weapons systems have evolved - a lot - the human body not so much.

I'm calling FUD.

[send it_hit]

not to add fuel to the fire, but army's comments make a lot of sense to me...

next range trip im giving it a shot. (literally)

[tonyxcom]

What is the difference between how you zeroed your Eotec at 100yards vs how you are shooting when pulling right?

Support the gun on sandbags or backpack and confirm your zero is good first before doing anything else.

[Army]

Even assuming your "use the second joint" theory had some merit - which it doesn't - your "milk the whole hand" approach is a well-demonstrated recipe for failure and a known item to coach against, especially with a pistol grip.

Weapons systems have evolved - a lot - the human body not so much.

I'm calling FUD.

Nope. Whole hand is certainly no good with a standard rifle stock, makes for an awkward hold, little to no finesse on trigger control.

The recipe is NOT well-demonstrated with a pistol gripped rifle, only demanded by Drill Sergeants and Instructors for the last 50 years because "..that's the way we've always done it", and that's the way the manuals have said to do it for over 100 years.

Do the 'ol dime on the barrel trick (balance a dime on the barrel, pull trigger. If it falls off, too much trigger manipulation) while supporting the handguards and pulling trigger with your finger tip. Then, roll your hand up and around the grip to the second pad or joint, left hand support at the mag-well, and again slowly apply trigger pressure. No cheating! Make it an honest effort! You'll notice much less hand movement doing it my way.

With the mag-well hold not bending the barrel, and the heavy hand on the trigger, your groups will shrink. We are doing 600m center mass hits on competition silhouettes (smaller than standard qual targets) with issue A2 rifles, and keeping all hits in the black. We've run steel out to 750m, and found that hits are predictable. I recently qual'ed Expert (Army) on the KD range with 40 head shots at 100-200- and 300yds. Moving to the pop-up range I again qual'ed Expert, firing standing off-hand only.

Ya gotta lose the mindset that it shouldn't be done this way. I'm not saying everyone is wrong, I'm saying this is better

[MrPlink]

Use what works! Take a look at your current technique which gives the best results, then try (honestly) something different and then compare results! Take what works for you and ditch what does not.

Shooting technique, like many other things in life, is not a black and white issue. Paradigms come and go, you can cite mass stats or personal anecdotes on what is best, but every person is different, and not all shooting scenarios (or rifles) are the same. With popular (or emerging) styles and techniques it is easy to claim one is "better" and perhaps better for most, but not always better for all. At the end of the day the one thing you cant argue about are results.