Nomenclature question on the AR platform

[SanPedroShooter]

One of the orginal Stoner designs was designated as AR15, and the military version was subsequently designated M16.

Semi Auto civilian versions are still called AR15's. No question there.

My question is this, with the newer shorter varients being designated by the military as M4's in the generic, what is the correct term for semi auto, civilain M4?

Is it still an AR15 even though the original is 20 inch + rifle? I have heard M4gery of course, but that is just slang. Anyone got an opinion on this?

[Nathan Krynn]

Either is fine, civie designations vary by manufacturer.

M4gery = M4 forgery =non colt

You are correct M4 is now legally a generic term meaning a carbine version of the M-16 or AR-15. A Maine judge ruled so in Colts law suit against Bushmaster.

[SanPedroShooter]

Interesting. I didnt really consider the Colt/non colt issue either.

Okay, unrelated. In video games like Battlefield Three, you can use many modern guns. Some have generic names, but some like the SCAR-H are called by there right names. Do game developers need to get permission to use the name and likeness of firearms? For an AK? For 1911?

I notice they use names like ACOG, but not EO-TECH or Aimpoint, even the sight portrayed is obviously the same.

Also, its funny, but when I said "generic" I meant as opposed to specifc varients like the M4A1 etc... I didnt consider that "M4" might be claimed as copyrighted by Colt. I was under the assumption that M4orgery was just a play on the fact the gun was a civilain semi auto version as opposed to the full auto/select fire milatary version.

[Merc1138]

Interesting. I didnt really consider the Colt/non colt issue either.

Okay, unrelated. In video games like Battlefield Three, you can use many modern guns. Some have generic names, but some like the SCAR-H are called by there right names. Do game developers need to get permission to use the name and likeness of firearms? For an AK? For 1911?

I notice they use names like ACOG, but not EO-TECH or Aimpoint, even the sight portrayed is obviously the same.

Also, its funny, but when I said "generic" I meant as opposed to specifc varients like the M4A1 etc... I didnt consider that "M4" might be claimed as copyrighted by Colt. I was under the assumption that M4orgery was just a play on the fact the gun was a civilain semi auto version as opposed to the full auto/select fire milatary version.

Yes, game companies need to get the rights sometimes(not all companies care) to use the trademark in videogames. For example, EA apparently didn't get permission from Textron/Bell to use the likeness of their helicopters and subsequently got sued over it:

http://www.newbiesinc.com/2012/01/09/ea-facing-battlefield-3-helicopter-lawsuit/

[Nathan Krynn]

Yeah it was against HK and bushmaster Colt cited acts of trademark infringement, trade dress infringement, trademark dilution, false designation of origin, false advertising, patent infringement, unfair competition, and deceptive trade practices.

This is why the HK renamed their rifle HK-416.

I honestly do not know as I don't play those types of games.

[SanPedroShooter]

Yes, game companies need to get the rights sometimes(not all companies care) to use the trademark in videogames. For example, EA apparently didn't get permission from Textron/Bell to use the likeness of their helicopters and subsequently got sued over it:
http://www.newbiesinc.com/2012/01/09...opter-lawsuit/

Interesting. I wonder who you would ask to use the likeness of an iconic gun like the AK pattern or a 1911? The russian government? The estate of JMB? I imagine that some of the designs are public domain by now. Something like the SCAR-H, a new product, would obviously require some form of permission.

"EA claims they are protected by the First Amendment and a disclaimer stating depiction of real world weapons and vehicles is not an endorsement by the manufacturer"

Electronic Arts asserts that its depiction of the three aircraft “are protected by the First Amendment and the doctrine of nominative fair use.” EA notes that Battlefield 3′s packaging features a disclaimer stating that the appearance of real-world weapons and vehicles does not constitute any official endorsement by their maker. It adds that “the Bell-manufactured helicopters are not highlighted or given greater prominence than any of the other vehicles within the game.”

“The Bell-manufactured helicopters depicted in Battlefield 3 are just a few of countless creative visual, audio, plot and programming elements that make up EA’s expressive work, a first-person military combat simulation,” says the suit.

That answers some of my questions. Maybe they didnt ask FN Herstal after all....

Electronic Arts’ pre-emptive action would seem unusual were it not for June’s landmark Supreme Court ruling that video games have the same free speech protections as other expressive works such as film, books and music.

Since the Supreme Court ruled, EA has prevailed in a somewhat similar matter involving the unlicensed use of likenesses. In September, a federal judge ruled that EA’s recognizable, if unnamed, depiction of a real college quarterback, without his permission, was within the boundaries of its rights to free expression.

As far as not playing FPS vidoe games, I dont blame you. BF3 is pretty neat actually. I havent played a video game in ten years, but I bought a PS3 and 48'' flat screen TV to play it on..... Being an adult has its perks...

[Nathan Krynn]

As far as not playing FPS vidoe games, I dont blame you. BF3 is pretty neat actually. I havent played a video game in ten years, but I bought a PS3 and 48'' flat screen TV to play it on..... Being an adult has its perks...

Yeah I am a weird duck. I do events like this weekends 2 gun shoot that use real guns on simulated targets but FPS's I don't handle well for certain reasons.

However when my wife goes to AT soon I will buy the new star wars MPOG and kill some jedi scum.

[SanPedroShooter]

Eh, its not for everyone. It is kind of odd to see my 13 year old neighbor, who grew up in urban LA, correctly identify a good percentage of my small arsenal and show me how to clear the chamber on an AR15 and a Glock19....

Good thing, maybe...? I have taken him to the range to make sure he understands the difference between fantasy and reality, and bought him an NRA membership. Will video games cause a crop of young "shooters" to pick up real guns as is there right and privilege in this country? Maybe... Having served myself, I do find it occasionally disturbing seeing combat and resultant carnage trivialized, but, as this thread shows, I like to over think things occasionaly....

[Merc1138]

Interesting. I wonder who you would ask to use the likeness of an iconic gun like the AK pattern or a 1911? The russian government? The estate of JMB? I imagine that some of the designs are public domain by now. Something like the SCAR-H, a new product, would obviously require some form of permission.

You wouldn't, and those designs do not require permission(unless you were to do something like write "Springfield Armory" along the side of the 1911 in your videogame, since the patents are long expired(same with those for the AR)

Russia has on occasion made headlines here and there about defending claims on the AK pattern, but the reality is that they have no mechanism to do so.

Heck, Glock's generation 1 patents have expired already(however trade dress suits for making an outright counterfeit are another issue). Of course there are also issues involved with cloning and beginning production, then the issue of cost and demand(how much will it cost to make a gen 1 glock clone, and how much would people be willing to pay for it compared to the real thing), and possibly other patent related issues with Europe.

[SanPedroShooter]

From the tone of the article, it doesnt look like EA asks anyone for anything, hence the lawsuits.... I will have to do some reasearch on "fair use". I Imagine that using a gun in video game is like using a gun in a novel or TV show.

I assumed that the patents on guns like the 1911 are expired and are public domian. It sounds like patents expire much sooner than intillectual property, which I belive in 99 years.

As for Russia going after people that make and reproduce AK pattern rifles, that sounds like a bad joke as they armed or set up munition factories, covertly and not so covertly, for a good portion of the terrorist's, communist's and bananna republic's since the 1950's...

[Merc1138]

From the tone of the article, it doesnt look like EA asks anyone for anything, hence the lawsuits.... I will have to do some reasearch on "fair use". I Imagine that using a gun in video game is like using a gun in a novel or TV show.

I assumed that the patents on guns like the 1911 are expired and are public domian. It sounds like patents expire much sooner than intillectual property, which I belive in 99 years.

As for Russia going after people that make and reproduce AK pattern rifles, that sounds like a bad joke as they armed or set up munition factories, covertly and not so covertly, for a good portion of the terrorist's, communist's and bananna republic's since the 1950's...

Yeah, patents for quite a while expired after 17 years, and a while back they were extended to 20 years.

Unlike copyright, part of the point of the patent system is to give the developer a head start to produce a product and make some money off of it. However, that doesn't mean they can just ride on the coat-tails of one success for eternity and should continue development of new products(which would have newer patents).

I think part of the difference of the use in a movie, compared to the use of the helicopters comes back to the trade dress problem. Ignoring the glock 7 that costs more than you make in a month, most of the time in media a glock 17 is a "gun" or at most a "glock", as opposed to calling it by whatever part number SKU it officially goes by and managing to get it wrong in the process.

Also, it's not that Russia would go after those third world countries they've been arming. Oh no. 1. they already get money from those places. 2. Those places don't have much more money to give. I was referring to Russia throwing a fit about AK's used in videogames, or AKs made by American companies. Or even airsoft clones in some instances.