Opinions on California-legal rifles

[DoctorCheney223]

Since we are new to the California market and don't even live there, we are trying are best at learning the rules and making sure we stay WELL within them. Our concern is being on the side of caution when making any rifles for California.

I have seen the bullet kits for "permanently" attaching magazines but as a manufacturer, I just don't feel comfortable enough with them. We want to offer rifles with the magazines already attached and make it a little more "permanent" than the use of a bullet.

Do you think it's unreasonable to put a little bit of tack weld between the magazine and the receiver to "permanently" attach the 10-round magazine to the receiver? It would be placed so that if the owner ever moved out of California it could be modified so that the magazine is then detachable.

We don't want to offend California gun owers and at the same time we just don't want to open ourselves up to potential issues with the California DOJ. I think I am a reasonable person and usually try to play devil's advocate on issues and the "bullet locks" just appear to easy to modify to me. That's just my opinion and I am sure quite a few of you will disagree with me.

So.... what do you guys think? If we did secure the magazines, modified 30-rounders to permanently hold 10 rounds (more than just a rivet), modified the safety levers to keep the action open to feed the magazine and offered rifles like these, do you think that would be fair?

I don't want to come off as "high and mighty" to you California folks and act as if you folks don't know your own laws. If we could just sell to California I wouldn't have a problem with it. You guys get the short end of the stick and MOST of the other gun owners in this country have nothing good to say. I have read that old "move out of the Commie ****hole" line enough times to make me puke. I would just love to offer some cool products to California but I have to make sure to cover myself at the same time.









The last photo has some SBR's that we couldn't sell to California but they could be modified to provide an overall 16" barrel length. Also, we could modify the side-folding stocks to remain in the open position and avoid any issues with the weapon being less than 30".

I posted this question on AR15.com's CAHTF as well because your input is what counts.

thanks,
Ron

[Josh3239]

Someone correct me if I am wrong, but the law says nothing about a magazine being permanently attached.

I believe it says that it must not be removable except with the use of the tool. That is the DOJ's words, the bullet button or anyother lock on the market does that. It won't allow the magazine to be released with out the use of a tool.

A rivet through the magazine release to stop it from being actuated will lock the magazine in and cannot be removed without a tool. That doesn't mean it can be released but rather it isn't permanent but it is legal. It is by no means a grey area but rather legal based on the letter of the law. Because LE doesn't understand the laws doesn't mean its grey. If it were illegal most of us on this board would be in jail along with several dealers both inside and outside California. Speak with Hector at ColdWarShooters.net , he caries the bullet button and is located in Texas.

Locking the magazines w/o a bullet button would be legal and fine, sure. But you'll have some competition with legal bullet button builds and may find some of your rifles having bullet buttons attached to it. I am not trying to be an ***, just tell you like it is.

As for 10rd magazines in 30rd bodies, those must be irreversible.

That said, welcome to Calguns! Anytime an out of state dealer is interseted in helping out the subjects of the People's Republik of Kalifornia, I count that as a win.

[TurboFall]

This is great, we can never have too many CA-friendly dealers! I don't think you offended anyone.

But maybe instead of a fixed magazine, would you be willing to consider removing the evil features instead? That way, you can sell them in a perfectly legal way, and customers can decide if they want to BB and add back the pistol grip.

[valleyrat]

FWIW as a CA gun owner I was immediately put off by OLLS that have the mag lock. There is something sacreligous about an otherwise detachable mag rifle that has a mag pinned in. Perhaps it is just me but I would NEVER buy a gun that has something welded on (I hate those CA Yugo SKSs with the brake welded on the barrel in place of the GL) I prefer the featureless route. Both of my OLL AKs are featureless with detachable mags and I love them. With the MMG I barely notice I live in KA. I have recently been bitten by the FAL bug though, so a mag lock may be in my future.

[savasyn]

Thanks for thinking of us! We certainly appreciate it

Is that left folding stock US made or foreign? I'll looking for a US made left folder for one of my reg'd AKs.

[Full Clip]

Ron, there are already a number of companies LEGALLY supplying CA with LEGAL firearms that do not have welded mags, so you really have to ask yourself if you're going to be competitive with them. There will be a small percentage of CA buyers who want a top-loading AR because they think it will be "more legal," but you won't find many of them on this forum. As months continue to pass, and no anti-OLL cases are either filed, prosecuted or won and the DOJ doen't stop DROSing OLLs, you have to come to the conclusion that Monsterman grips, U-15 stocks, bullet-buttons and mag-locks make these rifles LEGAL by the letter of the law. You have some beautiful products there, but I'd not buy one with a welded mag. Sorry. Smart of you to do some market research, however...

[shark92651]

Ron,

This is David (RifleGear.com), we talked earlier about 10/30 mags. I can understand why you would want to be extra cautious in this area, but I have to agree though there is nothing in the penal code that says anything about welding the magazine in order to make it non-detachable, as a matter of fact, it specifically states that using a bullet tip to remove the magazine is "non-detachable" enough. If it were me, I would just ship the off-list AKs with the pistol grip and flash-hider removed, or better yet, offer configurations with AK MonsterMan grips or the new AK Bullet Bullet lock being finalized by Radd:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=75121

Then again, it's easy for me to say because I am not the one that is potentially going to be harrased by the CA DOJ. To be honest with you though, If you are going to get hassled I think they will do it whether or not your rifles have spot welds instead of MonsterMan Grips or Bullet Button mag locks.

Regards,
David

[IH8CALAWS]

You'r rifles look very nicely built. but I personaly would never buy a gun with a mag welded in place, Even if it's just a tack weld. I just don't see the use of an ak with a permanently attached mag, big PITA to load. If you come up with a way to fix the mag that is not permanent I would be intrested in one.

[NeoWeird]

DC223 I'd like to thank you first for taking the step to try and help us. It's greatly appreciated, and sadly the people who NEED it most are the ones who don't really post. For those of us here we will, more than likely, be on the more extreme end of things. For the average joe it might be best to play it safe; for your sake as well as theirs.

That said, I will get into my post.

Personally, I would NOT buy any firearm that was welded. Period. End of discussion. I see no point in destroying a firearm when a simply replaced part can be just as easily modified and be easier to replace if the person ever left the state. Personally, I would rather see a rivet put through the magazine walls that had a tab sticking out of the magazine body into the firearm cavity that restricted downward travel. This type of magazine lock would be absolutely permanent on your end, and would deter alteration as once it's done there is no going back unlike with some other magazine locks where they could potentially be turned into AWs and stored as legal rifles with little effort at all.

However keep in mind several things:

1. Many people, especially adament gun owners, feel there is a either a change in California gun law in the future or they will be leaving to a much more friendly state. These people will want to revert their rifles to normal if suchan event happens - this is a sizeable percentage of people on this forum.

2. Many people collect firearms and an altered firearm is no better than a bubba'd firearm. I fall into this category and I would much rather see a ****ed over Mec-gar magazine in my rifle, knowing the rifle is all original, than to have a cool looking magazine and knowing my rifle will always be a little more bastardized than the next.

3. We are a state that is surrounded by free states and many people frequent those states. The ability to be able to use their rifle in its intended manner, even for a day, and be able to return it back to CA-legal before returning home is a HUGE advantage (or lack there of being disadvantage) to many people.

That being said, I have a suggestion. Tack weld your rifles, or do whatever it is that you feel comfortable doing (as already stated there is no law that states it has to be attached, the law goes into detail about how the magazine can be detached - also the original Vulcan ARs that came after the FAB-10s were only held together with epoxy and were certified by the CA DOJ). Then, you can have a waiver that must be signed stating the purchaser understands that you are building a firearm to THEIR spec even against your warnings and you are unable to know all laws of all areas at all times and they are giving you a sworn statement saying that the above described firearm is legal for them to purchase, take posession of, and own and complys with all federal, state, and local laws, ordnances, statutes, and any other restrictive measure that may prevent them from owning said firearm. You could also have another waiver for dealers to sign stating that they understand that they are receiving a firearm from you and that by starting any transfer to any person they assure to you that they have inspect the firearm and agree that it is legal for the dealer to take posession of and sell and that the purchaser is legal to take posession of it. If you REALLY wanted, you could also have it be required that it is notarized. Once you have one on file your end is covered. It's the same thing most dealers do with 03 FFLs and there is never any problem with them.

That's my take. Like I said, I'd rather have to spend $50, wait two weeks for the aprt to arrive, and spend 2 hours installing new parts that I destroyed to make the rifle 'free' if it ever comes to that then to have an 'invisible' tac inside the reciever. Magazines can be replaced; crack a receiver due to it being too brittle from improper welding and your SOL. That's just my stance on it.

[LECTRIKHED]

Sir,
Thank you for helping out us California residents. Sadly, many gun companies have turned their back on the California gun owners. They seem to blame us for how our whacked out politicians vote.

In regards to the bullet button. The law specifically sites a "bullet" as a tool to remove a magazine. The law is really clear on this one. This is the reason that SKS rifles are allowed in California. Welded style rifles are already available here in California. Unless you offered them at a significantly lower prices, I don't think that anyone would purchase them.

The California DOJ does not have jurisdiction outside of California. If a lawsuit were to come up, there are plenty of California gun owners that would back you up. No lawsuits have come up against out of state companies. If they could stop them, they would. There are also plenty of FFLs in California that the DOJ has jurisdiction over which they leave alone. These FFLs are selling OLL rifles at a remarkably pace. I'm sure we are now consuming more rifles and handguns than any state in the country.

By your pictures I am guessing that you are an AK builder. There are rifles which you can build for us. You can simply leave off the pistol grip and flash hider when you ship the rifle to the FFL. Then just ship the pistol grip and flash hider to the consumer who ordered it.

The second rifle which you can produce which would sell like crazy would be a Saiga knockoff. While the Saiga rifles are perfectly legal here, some people are refraining from purchasing them due to additional ambiguity with the name. I for one would purchase a 7.62 x 39 or 5.45 x 39 hunter style rifle in a second if it did not say saiga. There are a lot of gun enthusiasts who know that OLLs are legal etc. but are not yet willing to take the risk of a pistol grip or BB rifle. This is likely a market that you can tap into.

The last and final area that can make a lot of money and do a great service to Californians is the SKS. The most plentiful new SKS on the market is the Yugo. The grenade launcher needs to be removed before it comes to California. Sadly I cannot find anyone that is doing this. I would love to buy a couple of NIB Yugo SKSs w/o grenade launcher.

[DoctorCheney223]

Well you guys cleared up my understanding of the California law. I was under the impression that it had to be "permamently" attached so that it could never be removed. You guys know your laws and I have no problems with the "bullet" attachment after further explanation. My feelings are even better now knowing that Vulcan was granted approval with the use of expoxy.

You guys will have to forgive my ignorance of the California laws and what I would like to do is submit a rifle for an "opinion" from you folks prior to any California sales This may save me a lot of headache before I get to deep into something that is or isn't needed.

thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Ron

[apbrian112]

it's a learning process... everybody here will benefit from ffl's like you who are willing to learn the laws and make available legal firearms for our purchase. just wanted to say thanks!
-brian-

[jandmtv]

personally, i would never buy any gun with a welded mag, thats just me, that being said, if bullet button kits were not legal enough, then most of us would be in jail by now serving a sentance for a felony. now alot of us are thankfull that you think of us nazzifornians, and that you are willing to go the extra mile to supply us with more toys while the governator isnt making it easy on you, but i would reconcider the whole welding idea.

ive seen cops buying guns from a local gun store with prince50's and bb's installed on them, so if its legal enough for them to buy, then its legal enough for me.

not to mention when i was at angeles a week ago, i had a cop staring at me for like 5 minuts when he saw me there with a AR and spare mags with the pistol grip on untill he saw me using the bullet to drop the mag, then he looked and walked away.

EDIT: if you are that worried, sell the guns here without the pistol grip. that is 100% legal, and let the buyer worry about putting a bb on the gun. thats what most of the california gun dealers do when it comes to a ak type rifle. they sell the rifle without a pistol grip, and they sell the pistol grip seperatley as an accessorie.

[DoctorCheney223]

Sir,
The second rifle which you can produce which would sell like crazy would be a Saiga knockoff. While the Saiga rifles are perfectly legal here, some people are refraining from purchasing them due to additional ambiguity with the name. I for one would purchase a 7.62 x 39 or 5.45 x 39 hunter style rifle in a second if it did not say saiga. There are a lot of gun enthusiasts who know that OLLs are legal etc. but are not yet willing to take the risk of a pistol grip or BB rifle. This is likely a market that you can tap into.

Can you explain to me what the issue with a Saiga is? Is it listed as a rifle that is not allowed for sale in California?

Here is what I did with a Saiga that I ordered. I used spare parts we had around the shop and came up with this one. I had to swap out topcovers and use one that allows for elevation adjustment because the front sights are fixed. The topcover that I currently have on it uses HK rear sights as well.



thanks,
Ron

[NeoWeird]

Nice Galil clone!

Just curious, are you offering builing services as well, or just selling rifles you build. If so, got any price ranges/estimates to guage interest?