What's a good piston-AR for around 1k?

[Zippiot]

I sent 800 rounds through my M16 without a single jam, misfire or anything. Took it apart and it was one carbon covered mess but all parts moved reliably. I WILL be dumping high numbers of rounds downrange and I dont expect either a DI or Piston system to fail regardless.
A little added complexity and metal rod is no match for a machinist with a lathe in his garage.

But its only 100 dollars more for something that has captivated the assault weapon market. Yes Stoner's original design was a filthy mess but almost all the bugs have been worked out. Maybe the DI system is the last glitch in the matrix stopping the AR platform from achieving greatness!!

So why do I want a piston vs a DI? It doesnt matter either way to me, but the market shift in this direction can be a sign of things to come so it shouldnt be fought with such animosity by diehard fans. If you are good enough to shoot differently in a piston vs DI then you should be getting paid to shoot

[Bellehood]

as for me, I see no reason to buy a fake AR15, if I was going with a piston system I wouldn't be going with an AR15. The Sig is close to what I would go with. Thats just me...

...would be happier with a real piston rifle...

...I am not saying they are inferior, they are not...

You confuse me. You seem to have a deep bias against all non-ak-ish piston rifles, but then say they are not actually bad weapons. Your use of "fake ar-15" and "REAL piston rifle" is pretty ridiculous. All of the company's that are making piston AR's, are making them, from start to finish, as piston AR's. Sure, the lowers are produced along with the lowers intended for DI rifles, but its not like they take the upper of a DI AR, rip its guts out, and sew in a piston Frankenstein style. They are just as much "real piston rifles" as any other piston rifle on the market, just with a different design.

As for reasons to own one, I completely agree with the ones given. As much as I love my M4, its light recoil, its high level of accuracy, simplicity of design, light weight, I DESPISE cleaning it. I have been doing it for years, and there is little I hate more than cleaning an M4 after shooting, say, a thousand live rounds followed by a thousand blanks. It takes, FOREVER. And that is just the chamber and bolt group. The real issue we see with our M4's after a couple heavy range days, is the amount of grit and carbon blown into the trigger mechanism. If you shoot 400-500 rounds in an hour, as long as you keep enough CLP on the BCG, it's not gunna jam. The issue we see, is the trigger being so gummed up, we get delayed fires, pull the trigger, and it fires anywhere from a quarter of a second, to a whole second after. Freaky stuff.

I don't own an AR-15, because I get enough of it at work. But if I were to buy one, it would be a piston.

[Zippiot]

The AR-15 is a bastardized AR-10 (yes I said it, the original design was an AR-10 in .308 and had no forward assist or shell deflector) so calling something a fake AR-15 is like saying Vanilla Ice didnt rip off Queen who ripped off some other song when they made Under Presure

And parts of the same platform rarely interchange between companies (hence the 2nd poster's response of you choose that platform for life). Armalite and DPMS for example

[21SF]

Id like to see a head to head comparison of a Piston Gun VS DI w/ Nickle Boron BCG, those thing help a lot!!!

[goodlookin1]

Just to be clear on what I am saying ( @ goodlookin1), I am not saying they are inferior, they are not. They are merely (in my mind) less likely to take hold within the firearms market and I could possibly own a firearm I can not fix, repair or shoot for fear of a broken / worn out part that can not be replaced easily. The limited supply thing is great to collectors...an AR18 is awesome sauce for the collecter...just not me. YMMV.

In this sense, I agree. The proprietary designs may become problematic of the small companies in the future. But as for "fake piston" rifles, I dont agree at all. Piston's a piston. If you want to call it "makeshift", "drop-in", that's fine, but real vs fake is not accurate at all, IMO. Let's stick with "originally built with" and "modified to fit on"

It does seem weird that in reading between the lines, you dont like the drop-in systems, most notably for the proprietary designs. But your dislike for them seems pretty strong, given that you admitted they are not inherently inferior. Are you saying that if you had an AR-15 that performed flawlessly with a "modified to fit on" piston system, that you would be unhappy with it because of the potential lack of future parts availability in an unknown distant time? Personally, if it came down to that, I'd just convert back (best thing about a kit is it's not permanent!). If I cant find the parts, so be it. It was fun while it lasted. Then I'd go back to the filthy AR style'd DI upper (30 min change) and keep shooting. I mean, it's not the end of the world (and even then I think my drop in piston would still keep firing )

But this is my opinion, based on my experience

[sonnyt650]

Nickle Boron BCG, those thing help a lot!!!

Not with the cleaning which for me like others here is the biggest issue I've got with my DI rifles. Personally being stuck on the 100 yard line except the third Saturday of every month, I strive to get small groups out of my rifles and a dirty barrel causes more grief that way than either piston system I've used. True enough cleaning the barrel as well as cleaning out the chamber still needs to happen for this purpose, but with a piston a wipe-down and relube of the BCG/receiver nowhere near the same chore.

Also I recently read here on this forum that a mere ten rounds a minute over long periods of time qualifies as burning up a barrel (I think it was in reference to Wanat in Afghanistan). For sure that's not mag dumps in burst or full auto and a case can be made that it's plinking rate-of-fire. If a chrome-lined steel barrel can't take that then whatever lube used in the receiver definitely can't.

[FeuerFrei]

Me thinks the OP didn't want to start another DI vs Piston conflict here.

OP,
For your monitary limitations you placed on your purchase I say buy the Smith or Stag.
There, wasn't that painless and non-argumentative.

[drpepper]

Per an article in business week or wsj yes bushmaster was bought by freedom group and they are consolidating operations at a remington factory in another state. But the owner of bushmaster now says he plans to open another gun company(forgot the name) in the same old factory and employ the former bushmaster employees there.

[Striker]

I would like to ask this to those who say a gun with a drop in kit is a bad thing: What is the difference, when looking at, say a HK416 upper, and an upper with a drop in kit? When you really look at the differences, there really arent any. They all function the same, only some have more parts than others. Some have gas adjustments, some have other springs here and there, bushings, and whatnot. But is an AR patterned rifle "that was designed as a piston from the ground up" really any functionally different than the rifles with a drop in piston?

In my opinion, no, they are not. They are short stroke systems with the same shaped carrier (either a one piece or a bolt on "piston" key) that vent gas at the gas block instead of inside the receiver. Sure, there are minor changes here and there that make them "different", but the end result is the same: Short stroke piston. I think it's a cop out to say that drop in piston systems are inherently inferior "because they werent designed for it". You might say I have a vested interest in saying this because I have one of those systems.....but no, I dont care what people think of the drop in piston kit I have...I know it just works. Every time.

And dont mistake me for someone who thinks the pistons have no drawbacks: They certainly include proprietary designs, extra weight, sometimes extra parts (depending on manufacturer), and ever so slightly decreased accuracy. But I would like to see the anecdotal evidence that supports the conclusion that short stroke "built from the ground up" pistons are better/different than "drop in" piston kits. I simply havent seen this to be true. I think if anything, reliability problems are born from incorrect installation rather than inherent design problems.

Just my own opinion though. And it's not worth anything

With due respect to you, the difference is that the HK 416 has been tortured both here and in s-holes around the world. The Colt, from what I understand is being tortured now to find out what it can really take. Their parts both large and small seem to hold up fine under the most rigorous of conditions. To my knowledge, your drop in piston kit hasn't been tested. You may have taken it to one of the aforementioned s-holes in the world and I don't know it, but mass testing, to my knowledge, hasn't been done. Theoretically, while sitting on a drawing board, maybe there is no difference, but from a practical point of view, there is one. At least, to me there is.

I don't like or dislike piston ARs. I think the same of them as I do any other weapon. If it's a quality piece, that's been tested in fairly large numbers, and come out on the other end working well, excellent. In the piston AR world though, there aren't many of those.

[TwoAsoapbox]

Filthy 14 has over 40,000 rounds through it on the original barrel and most of its original parts. It has been abused, neglected and fast fired in shooting drills by dozens of different shooters. It wasnt thoroughly cleaned until around the 25k round mark, just lubed and quickly wiped from time to time. Its only had a handful of failures during all this time. Oh yeah, its a DI gun.

Piston systems in guns designed around that system are great, but in my opinion completely unnecessary for civilian AR-15s. Simply put its just more parts and more money.

[Deadon]

Well I just bought a ACR. Ive had zero problems with it at 250 rounds. I would do it all over again in a second. Remington have bought Bushmaster and with the numbers for the ACR now in the 4000's Im sure we'll see more parts soon.
I can tell you this, people love this gun. Ive had a ton of questions about it at the range. The Ambi features are nothing but awesome.

[Zippiot]

Me thinks the OP didn't want to start another DI vs Piston conflict here.

OP,
For your monitary limitations you placed on your purchase I say buy the Smith or Stag.
There, wasn't that painless and non-argumentative.

Lol thank you....
any bad things about the Bushmaster?

[MrPlink]

Lol thank you....
any bad things about the Bushmaster?

yeah, its a Bushmaster

There was the mass hiccup with the FCG going full auto, but Bushy recalled em all, so should be a non-issue now. Most serious thing I could find (pretty damn serious IMO) from skulking around the ACR forum there have been a couple cases of bolts smashing themselves to bits.

Im sure the ACR defense force will be along shortly telling me I dont know what Im talking about, or because it didnt happen to theirs it couldnt possibly happen at all. Then the RobArm guy will pop up telling you to buy a XCR instead.

[Zippiot]

How much is an XCR I cant seem to locate one on a website that usually pops up at the top of the google list...

Im leaning towards to Smith and Wesson, I owned one before (and have a 15-22 now) and had no issues with it. I do love the Magpull MOE look but the parts are cheap enough if down the road I decide to convert it

[TwoAsoapbox]

Holy hard-on Deadon! Thats a beautiful sight! All CA legal right?...haha. The ACR is a sick weapon for sure. If I were to drop the cash on Piston it would be a SCAR or ACR too because they were built ground up around the piston system. Maybe someday when Im rich, hopefully we can still buy them down the road.