FN PS90 (civilian version of P90) Cali-legal possibility- vote here!

[saki302]

Just wait until I get ahold of a PS90..
It will stay in NC if it must, but I *will* have one!
Next to my staff weapon replica
Now about that zat gun.. why on earth did they make it look like a......

-Dave

[Hanniballs]

Pretty pricey just so I can run around the house playing SG1

Jaffa Kree!!!!!!

LMFAO!! Why was that one of the first things I thought of when this was first posted.. and you're right.. we are geeks..

[monkey]

If you fill the small cut, WHERE would your trigger finger go? Nowhere if you held it with your thumb web there. I'd like to see them argue that as being a functional vertical grip. You wouldn't be able to fire the gun at all. I can hold a no-pistol-grip AR-15 in the same manner, and call it a 'vertical foregrip' too if you like, also with nowhere for your trigger finger to go. Point is *any* rifle with a flat portrusion in front of the receiver, or a mag in front of the trigger guard can be called a 'vertical foregrip' under your definition, so it's invalid. If you fill the small cutout, it would not be capable of being used as a vertical grip in a *functional* manner.

I've run this by 2 FFL's and a cop- all think it will fly. None think it is a vertical grip in any conventional sense of the word either- if you held it with one hand in front, it points at the SKY no matter WHAT you do. A vertical foregrip should point FORWARDS when grasped. You really have to handle one to see what I mean (handled 2 P90's at SAR last year).

If/when the F2000 rifle is released, it will have a flat foregrip, mainly because the P90 foregrip is quite ergonomically weird, and most shooters do not use the mini 'thumb hole' at all.. It's not even BELOW the bottom of the action, A.K.A. 'conspicuously portruding', because the WHOLE PLASTIC UNIT *IS* the action!!! Strange, huh? The bolt rides inside the PLASTIC stock!!

-Dave

Intricately familiar with the P90, I know exactly the natural orientation of the hand and it doesn't matter that it isn't 90 degrees to the bore, it ISN'T parallel as a conventional stock is. That's the point. As much as you might try, the palm of your hand is not parallel to the bore as it would on a standard, conventional rifle forearm. And that's the standard they'd use. I'll try to take a photo of the hand's natural position on the gun this weekend, it is at best 45 degrees.

Not to bust, but FFLs and cops can and usually are the least knowledgable people about this stuff, especially the cop part. You'll need a letter from DOJ for any authoritative opinion.

An AR15 can be fired in the same manner, sure, but the mag well on an AR15 is NOT "designed or intended" to be a front grip. You can shoot any handgun this way too, but the arguement is the same. It is not reasonable to suggest the triggerguard on a pistol is actually a vertical foregrip, even if you love shooting it that way.

In the end, all they (or a prosecuting attorney) need do is show a photo of the real, unmodified P90 or PS90 being fired with the front grip being "gripped" to prove it is intended and in fact designed as a front grip. Step 2, it is arguably, if not decidedly, vertical in orientation, not horizontal. You don't necessarily need to put your whole thumb through there to make this stick, just the thumbnail portion would be enough to create the "web of the hand" scenario. And that would be doable while still placing the trigger finger on the trigger. If they can fire the gun that way, you lose, even if you yourself cannot fire it in that manner.

Again, just trying to get you thinking about this the DOJ way. Draw it up your way and send a letter requesting a ruling on it's legality in California. That's the only way this will fly anyway.

[nbx]

I think it would be difficult to shoot with out the thumb whole stock.

http://nbox00.tripod.com

[saki302]

People don't believe me. We'll see in awhile..
Don't forget I was *right* about Harrott's MONTHS before all this lower business started, and people didn't buy it then. I do my homework.

Horizontal has *NOTHING* to do with *ANYTHING* being a pistol grip. Where does DOJ set a standard? They DON'T. They say 'pistol grip', not 45 degree, not 60 degree.
NEITHER does the WEB OF THE HAND critera so often made up in this case. THE REAR PISTOL GRIP DEFINITION DOES NOT APPLY HERE. Look at the AR vertical foregrip- the thumb web is above the trigger line. Is it legal? NO. Look at the Thompson SMG vertical grip. The thumb web is above the trigger top. You get the idea. You are quoting references which are irrelevant. With your system, like I said, I can equally say many other weapons have vertical grips. I can think of a whole number of rifles with a not-quite horizontal forend. Requiring a flat surface is bullsh%$t, and DOJ has never specified this.

If anything, that front grip (as unplugged) more closely resembles a thumbhole stock (though it does not meet that definition either, because it's a FOREND and not a STOCK technically, and plugged, it is not *INTENDED* to be used as such). Remember when pistol grips were banned federally in 1994, and thumbole stocks were legal? There you go- it's not a pistol grip by the federal definition since it has a bridge in the rear.

And I love it when people say cops/FFL's/etc/ don't know anything. What background do most posters have? Firearms attorney? The cops I know are actually VERY knowledgeable about firearms. Pray it's one of them who has to inspect your gear (assuming it's legal) at the range or in the desert. In fact, one of them felt the same way I did about Harrott's long before this AR lower business too.

I still say if you plug the small cutout, it cannot be used as a pistol grip. Period (excepting the fact it cannot be a pistol grip by the federal definition). You CANNOT hold it as such and FIRE the gun. You *INTENTIONALLY* disabled that feature. If you want to be nutso, glue a razor blade in there, and invite a DOJ officer to hold it as a pistol grip Hell, you could make an add-on squared piece to go in front, but that alters the lines of the gun, which defeats the purpose of owning one. The point is to legalize without defacing. I'd like to own a CA-legal PS90, not a squaro-blatt.

-Dave creator of "PS90 Blade III edition"

PS- I can't take photos at the SHOT show- no press pass
I do like the razor blade idea.. teaches trigger finger control- and less folks would ask to shoot your expensive ammo....

[sinner]

Rhineland Arms will be selling an AR upper receiver that accepts PS90 magazines and eject the brass downwards through the magwell.
Here is a picture: http://www.rhinelandarms.com/57/pics/ar57prototype2.jpg

[BigAL]

Rhineland Arms will be selling an AR upper receiver that accepts PS90 magazines and eject the brass downwards through the magwell.
Here is a picture: http://www.rhinelandarms.com/57/pics/ar57prototype2.jpg

Because the upper takes a mag it will be a serialized item and will have to go through an FFL.

[Yute]

We can dream right? Sigh... wonder if the SCAR is neuterable...

[monkey]

People don't believe me. We'll see in awhile..
Don't forget I was *right* about Harrott's MONTHS before all this lower business started, and people didn't buy it then. I do my homework.

Horizontal has *NOTHING* to do with *ANYTHING* being a pistol grip. Where does DOJ set a standard? They DON'T. They say 'pistol grip', not 45 degree, not 60 degree.
NEITHER does the WEB OF THE HAND critera so often made up in this case. THE REAR PISTOL GRIP DEFINITION DOES NOT APPLY HERE. Look at the AR vertical foregrip- the thumb web is above the trigger line. Is it legal? NO. Look at the Thompson SMG vertical grip. The thumb web is above the trigger top. You get the idea. You are quoting references which are irrelevant. With your system, like I said, I can equally say many other weapons have vertical grips. I can think of a whole number of rifles with a not-quite horizontal forend. Requiring a flat surface is bullsh%$t, and DOJ has never specified this.

If anything, that front grip (as unplugged) more closely resembles a thumbhole stock (though it does not meet that definition either, because it's a FOREND and not a STOCK technically, and plugged, it is not *INTENDED* to be used as such). Remember when pistol grips were banned federally in 1994, and thumbole stocks were legal? There you go- it's not a pistol grip by the federal definition since it has a bridge in the rear.

And I love it when people say cops/FFL's/etc/ don't know anything. What background do most posters have? Firearms attorney? The cops I know are actually VERY knowledgeable about firearms. Pray it's one of them who has to inspect your gear (assuming it's legal) at the range or in the desert. In fact, one of them felt the same way I did about Harrott's long before this AR lower business too.

I still say if you plug the small cutout, it cannot be used as a pistol grip. Period (excepting the fact it cannot be a pistol grip by the federal definition). You CANNOT hold it as such and FIRE the gun. You *INTENTIONALLY* disabled that feature. If you want to be nutso, glue a razor blade in there, and invite a DOJ officer to hold it as a pistol grip Hell, you could make an add-on squared piece to go in front, but that alters the lines of the gun, which defeats the purpose of owning one. The point is to legalize without defacing. I'd like to own a CA-legal PS90, not a squaro-blatt.

-Dave creator of "PS90 Blade III edition"

PS- I can't take photos at the SHOT show- no press pass
I do like the razor blade idea.. teaches trigger finger control- and less folks would ask to shoot your expensive ammo....

You need to do more homework. DOJ regs do in fact define pistol grip, forward grip, and both contain "web of the hand" language. If all else fails, check out the DOJ AW ID guide for LE. It's all in there.

You should also refrain from quoting expired law. The AW ban expired last year, so there is no federal definition for a "pistol grip." It has no bearing on this.

Not going to beat this horse anymore. The proof is in the pudding. Draw up a nice, clear diagram, send it to DOJ for approval and post your results here.

[saki302]

Your quote, as I said, is on the DOJ memo for a REAR pistol grip. What does it have to do with the web of the hand being above the trigger on the FOREND? Nothing. DOJ does not define forward grip at all. I just re-read their FAQ and SB23 last night. Nothing- You are incorrect iin this matter as to them specifying what a forward pistol grip is or is not.

They specifically defined the rear grip due to confusion regarding what is a pistol grip as far as AR's, AK's and tumor stocks go. They never did this for the front. Show me a drawing DOJ provided with a line through the front- you will not find one.

The expired federal law is a precise example of why this is not a pistol grip. That has more relevance than a ruling regarding a rear grip which has no bearing at ALL on the front grip. Get a grip!! (Sorry- I couldn't resist!! )

You may not buy into it, but a few others do. There is something in the works, but I am not at liberty to say. We shall see, but not soon, sad to say, due to the fact people arehaving trouble getting these in free states right now. It will not be my place to submit this for DOJ approval, but for those of faith, I believe it will be done. Due to a promise I made to an inside source I cannot provide any more details than that for now.

-Dave

[saki302]

Because the upper takes a mag it will be a serialized item and will have to go through an FFL.

But for those with pre-2000 registered lowers, you can keep it in AW configuration

The sad thing is, we're suck with 10 round mags.

-Dave

[saki302]

PS- any of you guys going to be at SHOT show? I'll be there tomorrow and Friday only. We can meet and BS at the FN booth

-Dave