trimmed my buffer spring?

[morfeeis]

so while out and about last weekend i was retesting my wolf ammo problem, same crap 2/3 round then a failure to feed. i noticed that it felt like the buffer just wasn't getting pushed all the way back due to the 223 being so under powered for my 5.56 barrel and gas system. So i thought what if i trimmed like 3 coils off the buffer spring, so i did and it worked great, after the 3 coil trim i didn't have one FTF.

My question is, as long as i shoot the same under powered wolf ammo will it cause any undo wear on my AR?

[bwiese]

If your (clean) AR will not reliably feed Wolf .223, there is something wrong with your rifle - maintenance, lube, gas flow, out of spec bottom-feeder parts, etc.

You have absolutely 110% incorrectly "fixed' (meaning not fixed) the problem even if it does work.

Also, you might really pound the gun up if you use another brand of ammo in there (say, real, quality M193 or M855).


Jimmying with the spring/buffer etc. is NOT acceptable.
The only possible allowable cases for this would be:"

• emergency fix if using 'bottom feeder' crap not-in-spec spring;
• emergency tweak if misapplying rifle spring in a carbine stock assy;

Now, you may indeed have a carbine that has a rifle-length spring installed instead of the proper carbine spring. [I think the converse, a carbine spring installed in an A2 rifle stock would be readily detectable by a buffer that slides around fairly easily]. Given that the spring may be incorrect, you should also check that you have a carbine and not a rifle buffer [but I think you'd have other problems if that happened]

Remember that AR rifle stock vs. carbine stock action springs have different lengths and spring rates and "these things are important".

Go back to starting point, and....

.. .with the exception of assuring a proper new quality carbine spring from a non-bottom-feeder vendor (spring rates can vary widely btwn gunshow parts kits and quality reference parts), don't go changing other parts or Dremeling things - don't fix things that don't need fixing, don't use duct tape, etc.

• Do you have a chrome-lined barrel w/milspec 5.56 chamber? Such guns eject (and thus help extraction) a helluva
  lot better than tight, "match" non-chrome-lined chambers.
  .
• Did you scrub chamber w/a chamber brush to clean accumulated solidified crap in chamber that may be affecting extraction?
  Those chamber brushes exist for a reason and bore snakes are not always adequate.
  .
• Is your gun properly lubed with CLP? (Dry or too light lube is a leading cause for AR issues, esp on newer guns.)
  . .
• Did you clean/lubricate bolt, as well exercise extractor & ejector a few dozen times to get the CLP lube down in there?? It
  may be dry inside. You probably shouldn't have to disassemble the bolt - just lube it wet and exercise the extractor & ejector.
  Follow the USGI M16 Operators' and Tech manuals (freely downloadable) for cleaning/lube instruction.
  
  Usu, good scrub of the chamber + good lube w/CLP and exercise of lubed bolt's extractor & ejector
  fixes 90+% of these various related problems (the incorrectly-named "double feed", etc.)
  . .. .
• Crappy mags are another lead cause of AR malfunctions. If mag catch hole is not cut at right height it
  can cause drag on the bolt carrier and slow its traversal. If you're using 10rd PMags, try USGI-style
  10rd mags instead. I hear lots of issues w/PMags in BulletButton maglocked rifles. Mags also can't be
  too tight, and they need to be able to wiggle a bit in gun.
  .
• After replacement with the correct, non-mangled spring & the above proper lube, see if gun works OK
  with Wolf. If you can run several mags' worth, you are OK.
  .
• If problem still exists, split gun up and borrow a friend's known-working-with Wolf AR, and then exchange
  uppers and lowers. See which part combo fails and diagnose from there....
  .f
  

[Merc1138]

so while out and about last weekend i was retesting my wolf ammo problem, same crap 2/3 round then a failure to feed. i noticed that it felt like the buffer just wasn't getting pushed all the way back due to the 223 being so under powered for my 5.56 barrel and gas system. So i thought what if i trimmed like 3 coils off the buffer spring, so i did and it worked great, after the 3 coil trim i didn't have one FTF.

My question is, as long as i shoot the same under powered wolf ammo will it cause any undo wear on my AR?

.223 should NOT be underpowered compared to 5.56 to the point of causing the bolt carrier to shortstroke. Now if you do get any hotter loads, you're probably going to end up with the buffer itself beating the hell out of the receiver extension, mangling the spring, and it's just a bad situation to be in.

What you did is pretty much the last possible thing to consider before actually doing some serious troubleshooting.

[HK35]

My question is, as long as i shoot the same under powered wolf ammo will it cause any undo wear on my AR?

I guess no one bothered to answer your question.

My answer would be yes. So use the shortened spring for anemic ammo and switch to a standard spring for 5.56 ammo.

Although I think 3 coils is a bit much. I would have started with one coil.

[Merc1138]

I guess no one bothered to answer your question.

My answer would be yes. So use the shortened spring for anemic ammo and switch to a standard spring for 5.56 ammo.

Although I think 3 coils is a bit much. I would have started with one coil.

Uhh, we did actually answer the question. The correct answer is to fix whatever is causing the shortstroking that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Not cutting a part short to make up for what could possibly be a badly drilled gas port, mis-aligned gas block, or something else.

[HK35]

Uhh, we did actually answer the question. The correct answer is to fix whatever is causing the shortstroking that shouldn't be happening in the first place. Not cutting a part short to make up for what could possibly be a badly drilled gas port, mis-aligned gas block, or something else.

Correct fix or not, that does not answer the question - see above.

[Merc1138]

Correct fix or not, that does not answer the question - see above.

Uhh, having the spring cut short would certainly qualify as undue wear. Hell, I'd consider it to be broken. The correct answer is to replace the spring with a proper length spring and actually fix the problem. Just because it's not the answer you or the OP are looking for doesn't change that it's the correct answer.

[bwiese]

HK35, the correct answer for "I'm doing some crazy unapproved crap, so will XYZ apply?" is to instead guide the man to the right way of fixing the problem.

This kinda falls into the, "If there's a dead hooker in my trunk, and she's there because she attacked me, will the cops issue a citation for expired tags when I'm pulled over?" category

[morfeeis]

If your (clean) AR will not reliably feed Wolf .223, there is something wrong with your rifle - maintenance, lube, gas flow, out of spec bottom-feeder parts, etc.

You have absolutely 110% incorrectly "fixed' (meaning not fixed) the problem even if it does work.

Also, you might really pound the gun up if you use another brand of ammo in there (say, real, quality M193 or M855).


Jimmying with the spring/buffer etc. is NOT acceptable.
The only possible allowable cases for this would be:"

• emergency fix if using 'bottom feeder' crap not-in-spec spring;
• emergency tweak if misapplying rifle spring in a carbine stock assy;

Now, you may indeed have a carbine that has a rifle-length spring installed instead of the proper carbine spring. [I think the converse, a carbine spring installed in an A2 rifle stock would be readily detectable by a buffer that slides around fairly easily]. Given that the spring may be incorrect, you should also check that you have a carbine and not a rifle buffer [but I think you'd have other problems if that happened]

Remember that AR rifle stock vs. carbine stock action springs have different lengths and spring rates and "these things are important".

Go back to starting point, and....

.. .with the exception of assuring a proper new quality carbine spring from a non-bottom-feeder vendor (spring rates can vary widely btwn gunshow parts kits and quality reference parts), don't go changing other parts or Dremeling things - don't fix things that don't need fixing, don't use duct tape, etc.
[LIST][*]Do you have a chrome-lined barrel w/milspec 5.56 chamber? Such guns eject (and thus help extraction) a helluva
lot better than tight, "match" non-chrome-lined chambers.

yes it is chromed lined 5.556 barrel

[*]Did you scrub chamber w/a chamber brush to clean accumulated solidified crap in chamber that may be affecting extraction?
Those chamber brushes exist for a reason and bore snakes are not always adequate.

no but there is no crud around the chamber and extraction is just fine it's just feeding due to the spring that was the problem.

[*]Is your gun properly lubed with CLP? (Dry or too light lube is a leading cause for AR issues, esp on newer guns.)

Yes lubed just fine

[*]Did you clean/lubricate bolt, as well exercise extractor & ejector a few dozen times to get the CLP lube down in there?? It
may be dry inside. You probably shouldn't have to disassemble the bolt - just lube it wet and exercise the extractor & ejector.
Follow the USGI M16 Operators' and Tech manuals (freely downloadable) for cleaning/lube instruction.

entire BCG was stripped down and lubed well

Usu, good scrub of the chamber + good lube w/CLP and exercise of lubed bolt's extractor & ejector
fixes 90+% of these various related problems (the incorrectly-named "double feed", etc.)

double feeds aren't the problem but chamber is clean
[*]Crappy mags are another lead cause of AR malfunctions. If mag catch hole is not cut at right height it
can cause drag on the bolt carrier and slow its traversal. If you're using 10rd PMags, try USGI-style
10rd mags instead. I hear lots of issues w/PMags in BulletButton maglocked rifles. Mags also can't be
too tight, and they need to be able to wiggle a bit in gun.

Pmag and usgi 30 rounders both did the same thing


[*]After replacement with the correct, non-mangled spring & the above proper lube, see if gun works OK
with Wolf. If you can run several mags' worth, you are OK.

will do
[*]If problem still exists, split gun up and borrow a friend's known-working-with Wolf AR, and then exchange
uppers and lowers. See which part combo fails and diagnose from there....

That will take some time as i don't know many AR shooters in CA

Thanks for taking the time to help.........

I guess no one bothered to answer your question.

My answer would be yes. So use the shortened spring for anemic ammo and switch to a standard spring for 5.56 ammo.

Although I think 3 coils is a bit much. I would have started with one coil.

Thank you

[morfeeis]

.223 should NOT be underpowered compared to 5.56 to the point of causing the bolt carrier to shortstroke. Now if you do get any hotter loads, you're probably going to end up with the buffer itself beating the hell out of the receiver extension, mangling the spring, and it's just a bad situation to be in.

What you did is pretty much the last possible thing to consider before actually doing some serious troubleshooting.

Not from what i have read, but OK. rifles that are gassed for 556 wont/don't feed 223 ammo all that was as when shooting 223 it's not getting the proper amount of gas.

but hey what do i know i cut buffer springs

[Merc1138]

Not from what i have read, but OK. rifles that are gassed for 556 wont/don't feed 223 ammo all that was as when shooting 223 it's not getting the proper amount of gas.

but hey what do i know i cut buffer springs

The only way it wouldn't be getting enough gas then, is if the port was drilled wrong(like I mentioned), or something else is incorrect with the gas system. If a rifle will operate with 5.56, but is so finicky that it won't with .223 due to a lack of pressure is because something has caused it to barely operate with 5.56.

Just as bwiese said, if your cleaned and lubed AR can't run wolf, something is wrong with the AR. The reason he mentioned swapping uppers with someone else, is because then you can narrow it down to being the upper and from there check things like the gas system.

[dieselpower]

good thing springs are cheap. use the short one for the wolf and a regular one for normal ammo.

[morfeeis]

The only way it wouldn't be getting enough gas then, is if the port was drilled wrong(like I mentioned), or something else is incorrect with the gas system. If a rifle will operate with 5.56, but is so finicky that it won't with .223 due to a lack of pressure is because something has caused it to barely operate with 5.56.

Just as bwiese said, if your cleaned and lubed AR can't run wolf, something is wrong with the AR. The reason he mentioned swapping uppers with someone else, is because then you can narrow it down to being the upper and from there check things like the gas system.

that is the way i use to think too, "if it fires 5.56 it should fire 223 just fine" but from what i've read on here and other places from those that know far more than i concerning short stroking that just isn't it. an upper set to fire a 5.56 round correctly is gassed to do just that so when a 223 that doesn't create as much pressure in the chamber is fired not enough gas is sent to cycle the rifle as it should be.

I did two things wrong and was trying to come up with a work around that didn't screw anything up. 1. i am running 223 ammo down an upper meant for 5.56 ammo and two i was using a "bottom feeder" buffer spring. i ordered another carbine spring tonight but that still might not fix my other problem but well we will see.

But thanks for the input

[dieselpower]

that is the way i use to think too, "if it fires 5.56 it should fire 223 just fine" but from what i've read on here and other places from those that know far more than i concerning short stroking that just isn't it. an upper set to fire a 5.56 round correctly is gassed to do just that so when a 223 that doesn't create as much pressure in the chamber is fired not enough gas is sent to cycle the rifle as it should be.

I did two things wrong and was trying to come up with a work around that didn't screw anything up. 1. i am running 223 ammo down an upper meant for 5.56 ammo and two i was using a "bottom feeder" buffer spring. i ordered another carbine spring tonight but that still might not fix my other problem but well we will see.

But thanks for the input

normally that is for rifle and mid length gas systems that has a mil-spec port. People have noticed that trend and a certain manufacturer has stated their mid gas system will or may not function correctly with lighter loads. If you still have that M4 upper you showed pics of hanging off of the tree (nice rifle BTW) then you should be ok by going with a light buffer (carbine NOT H) and a semi-auto BCG then lube generously. You can use the cut spring in any case.

[Merc1138]

that is the way i use to think too, "if it fires 5.56 it should fire 223 just fine" but from what i've read on here and other places from those that know far more than i concerning short stroking that just isn't it. an upper set to fire a 5.56 round correctly is gassed to do just that so when a 223 that doesn't create as much pressure in the chamber is fired not enough gas is sent to cycle the rifle as it should be.

I did two things wrong and was trying to come up with a work around that didn't screw anything up. 1. i am running 223 ammo down an upper meant for 5.56 ammo and two i was using a "bottom feeder" buffer spring. i ordered another carbine spring tonight but that still might not fix my other problem but well we will see.

But thanks for the input

Feel free to think what you want, but the only way .223 can't operate in a "5.56 gas system" is when someone "tuned" it so well that it barely operates with 5.56, or it's simply defective. This .223 down a 5.56 upper and being expected to not work is nonsense.

Let me repeat it again:

If your gas system is not sending enough gas to push the BCG back properly, something is wrong. It is not special/performance/high-end/tuned or anything else, it is broken. This isn't like a car that needs 91 to not have engine knock like it would with 87. It makes more sense to find and fix the actual problem, than it does to break other things till it hopefully kinda works but still not really. It's your rifle so it's up to you whether or not to fix it, or keep breaking things.