Purpose of a scope reticle hash marks?

[high_revs]

I didn't get an answer and have been more recently curious as I find my next scope for my AR10 builds. What exactly is the purpose of the reticle? a) range finder or b) hold over or c) both?

Most of the readings for mil and moa I've done focus on the range finder part along with calculations. OK, that's good.

But I've read in here people use them as hold overs instead of adjusting the scope. Before when I knew nil, that's what I thought too as I didn't focus much on range finding (too advanced for me, and still today) hence I got a mil-dot scope. When I got to shoot 300yds, I tried hold over but it didn't pan out so well. I thought it's because there's also the challenge of understanding your bullet trajectory whether it be a 55gr, 62gr, or 75gr .223. Then it really got me thinking "how can the reticle be used for holdover unless you absolutely know your ammo and only use it on 1 rifle so you know your ballistic trajectories." Isn't it?

So the holdover portion is where I'm stumped on as you cannot just take those hash marks as is w/o knowing what ammo and rifle you're shooting it from.

Been doing more reading as I'm looking for a second scope and I'm trying to decide between moa/moa and mil/mil. So far the easiest decision maker from my reading is mil/mil will get you faster adjustments as it's not as fine as moa.

[Super Spy]

tagged!

[UserM4]

Most people use them as hold over because they don't know how to range targets using mildots. I was told that if you get a BDC reticle for your caliber, it works well for holdover.

[dchang0]

you absolutely know your ammo and only use it on 1 rifle so you know your ballistic trajectories

You answered your own question...

This is one reason I respect those grumpy ol' bolt-gun snobs that practically live at the range--they more often than not know their rifles, their loads, and their scopes inside and out. Having to make clean kills on game requires that level of familiarity.

[Pthfndr]

The primary purpose of the scope reticle is to have a means of aiming the rifle.

Ranging and using it for hold overs/hold offs is secondary.

[high_revs]

The primary purpose of the scope reticle is to have a means of aiming the rifle.

OK... moving beyond the obvious from mr. smart pants. to fulfill the need for specifics, i modified the title to include hash marks.

[j4strngr]

My Burris has mil dots and hash marks on the lower calibrated to 22-250 (mounted on my Tikka T3 Varmit 22-250). Different rounds would change drop some but I was always taught find a round you like and use it as exclusively as possible therefore making results repeatable in other words my "hash marks" work pretty darn well...

[j4strngr]

Some scope hash marks are calibrated to certain calibers after that it's just practice... That's why you should always create a shooting log book

[NeoWeird]

OK... moving beyond the obvious from mr. smart pants. to fulfill the need for specifics, i modified the title to include hash marks.

Heh, Pthfndr is a respected long range shooter here and on arf not to mention a genuinely nice guy. His answer most likely wasn't sarcastic or fecitious in the least.

The hold over portion comes into play more when shooting rapidly between multiple ranges. Yes, you must know your ammo for this. Case in point, you're in compeition and your scope is set at 200 yards. Suddenly your shooting a handful of targets at 200 yards and then they throw a couple plates at 600 yards. You already know your drop at that distance with the ammo in the rifle you're using. You can either A) stop running, drop your rifle, and adjust your reticle to be dead center or B) hold over for bullet drop and windage to get fast shots off and then continue with the competition. Same holds true in combat.

Of course on stationary targets it's always best to do proper calculations, but in a 'seconds count' type of situation, it's a quick and dirty solution.

[Pthfndr]

OK... moving beyond the obvious from mr. smart pants. to fulfill the need for specifics, i modified the title to include hash marks.

Ok, the dots/hash marks are used to aim the rifle, whether you're holding dead on, holding over, holding off, or holding the dot/hash marks on a target to determine it's height in mil/moa for the purpose of ranging.

Did you mean to ask how does one USE the dots/hash marks to do all that?

The answer has already been given. They aren't load specific except in the case of bdc reticles. But how you use them is specific to the load you are using, except for the purpose of ranging.

When using them for ranging you are measuring the height or width off the target with them. For that it doesn't matter what you are shooting. Heck, you don't even need a rifle to use the scope for ranging purposes.

For holding over/off to account for bullet drop or wind you need to know the ballistic trajectory of the load you are using at the moment. If the trajectory changes the amount you hold over/off will be different. That can change because you switched to a different load, or atmospheric conditions changed to alter the trajectory.

Just for an example of how they are used, at the Norcal TBRC that the NCPPRC put on this weekend there was one stage with a number of targets from 100 yards out to 550 yards. The stage had the requirement to only use hold overs. No dialing for elevation or windage. The shooters were allowed to range the targets before hand with what ever means they had available. They had a time limit of 2 minutes to get into position and get off all their rounds (IIRC it was 10). So they had to know the ballistic trajectory of their load and then use the dots/hash marks to hold over for elevation and windage.

Here's 3 good threads put together to explain things.

http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=222

http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=36

http://www.caprc.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=37

Once you know the ballistics of the load you want to use you can create a dope card for quick reference that will tell you how much to hold over/off for various distances and amount of wind at those distances. Here's just one example of a dope card in mils:

[high_revs]

Heh, Pthfndr is a respected long range shooter here and on arf not to mention a genuinely nice guy. His answer most likely wasn't sarcastic or fecitious in the least.

I apologies to him if that wasn't the case but it just came across. So pthfndr, my apologies to you and appreciate your follow-up response.

The reason I'm asking is because I'd really like to take my shooting to the next level even if it's just knowledge as oppose to execution, and also the choice of the reticle (moa/moa or mil/mil). I guess I really need to develop good notes on ballistics to understand how to use hashmarks for hold overs in addition to knowing how to use it for range finding, let alone which ammo I'm shooting. I'm not sure of any other way to do it other than a rangefinder viewer though. but pthfndr gave some links for more readings for me. As much as I'd like to have a dedicated scope per rifle I have, it probably won't happen anytime soon. So I guess that note taking will have to be something I do religiously.

So, thank you Pthfndr and apologies for my comment. It wasn't as much as how to use but rather did people just start using hash marks as hold overs if they know their ballistic data vs. for range finding. The qeustion was also triggered when I watched top sniper season 1 and 2 and trying to pay close attention to the drills when they were doing range finding. I didn't see/hear hold overs so I was a little surprised about that, and got me thinking if hash marks are exclusive to range finding only and some folks just treat it as a hold over also. But they are a 1-shot 1-kill method so I wasn't thinking of competition shooting as another reason for hold overs at the time where one doesn't have much time or want to spend time adjusting scopes.

[Mac]

A thread with Class. Other viewers on the Interwebz will see this and say "I want to be part of this act."

Reminds me of the Charlie Daniels commercial.
That's How you do it - Son

[Pthfndr]

It wasn't as much as how to use but rather did people just start using hash marks as hold overs if they know their ballistic data vs. for range finding. The qeustion was also triggered when I watched top sniper season 1 and 2 and trying to pay close attention to the drills when they were doing range finding. I didn't see/hear hold overs so I was a little surprised about that, and got me thinking if hash marks are exclusive to range finding only and some folks just treat it as a hold over also. But they are a 1-shot 1-kill method so I wasn't thinking of competition shooting as another reason for hold overs at the time where one doesn't have much time or want to spend time adjusting scopes.

No apologies needed. There really are people out there who literally do not know what the reticle is for. Rather than take that for granted I gave the simple answer.

To answer your question quoted above, in the days before mildots a scope had a simple X reticle or some kind of post, (it might have had some kind of adjusting mechanism for el/wind). An experienced shooter would know how far his bullet would drop - in inches - at a certain distance. When sighting in at a target he would estimate how far away the target was by comparing it to the size of his reticle. As an example: At 100 yards an average human torso might be 5 times wider than his reticle. At 500 yards it might be the same width as his reticle. So if he was sighting on a target that was 1/2 the width of his reticle he would know it was 250 yards away. The shooter knew from his data of previous experience (DOPE) that his bullet would drop 15" from his zero distance at 250 yards. So he would "hold over" his target by what he visually figured was 15" to make a centered hit.

A human silhouette target at 800 yards through my 4x WWII sniper scope. (and yes, I can hit reliably at that range with that rifle and scope)



Optical range finders have been used for hundreds of years (mostly for artillery and naval guns), but even man portable ones are bulky and cumbersome. (see pic) They are accurate, but not typically accurate to within the small kill zone needed for a bullet. A few dozen yards one way or the other when you're sending a 16", 2000 lb. navel shell won't make a difference.



A sniper in the field, or his partner, could not easily, quickly or safely use one since the whole idea of a sniper is to remain concealed and get off quick accurate shots.

Then someone came up with mildots for a rifle scope. I won't go into the science of it since that is explained in one of the reference links I gave earlier, and they also explain the differences between mils and moa.

Now a sniper had a built in range finder, which when used precisely can be accurate to within +/- 5-10 yards distance wise at 1000 yards (based on personal experience). That is accurate enough to allow a Center of Mass (COM) hit on a human torso.

Now that the sniper has his mildots on the reticle, someone else realized that instead of calculating how much a bullet would drop in inches, they could figure it in mils. Once a shooter knows how much his bullet will drop in mils at a given distance, he can simply use the mildots to "hold over" to account for the bullet drop instead of dialing in his elevation change, and make an accurate shot. As an example: From the chart I posted, if I ranged the target at 450 yards, I see by my chart that my bullet drop is 2 mils. So I would center the second mildot or hash mark below the cross hair (hold over) on the target and send a round and hit the target.

The mildots can also be used in the same way to account for wind drift of the bullet.

Given the time to make a precise calculation of distance and wind effect, dialing in the elevation and windage will allow for a more precise shot. That's why bench rest shooters typically have 1/8 moa divisions on their scope knobs. To be as precise as possible. A sniper in combat is looking to remove his target from action. Normally that will mean a COM shot. Which, even at 1000 yards is about a 2 moa / 3/4 mil size target area. But if one has multiple targets to hit, and has to shoot and move quickly, using the mildots or hash marks will get it done reliably.

I hope this helps you understand things better.

[high_revs]

kewl beans. it dose help Pthfndr. Thanks again!