Using a Combo device on a CA FAL

[Leo762]

Hey! this was an old topic in the old board but i dont remember it being settled.

Is it legal to use a combination device with a fixed magazine rifle, either a belgian/imbel short combo or an austrian stoll device? i know a flash supressor is legal with a fixed magazine but if the combo device was not specifially designed to launch grenades (like yugo sks) would it be lagal to put one on and have it not be a "destructive device"??

thanks

[Charliegone]

It should be legal. I think with the yugo sks, it was importation issue they had. As for building a rifle with a nade launcher it should be fine, as long as you fix the magazine.

[bwiese]

I'd be careful here. A grenade launcher can bring a rifle into CA assault weapon class:

12276.1. (a) Notwithstanding Section 12276, "assault weapon" shall also mean any of the following:
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.
....

I'd think that a device whose primary function is a GL would be banned. Something that's just a support component and has other purposes would likely not.

Yugo SKSes were banned from CALIFORNIA due to the GL issue making it an assault weapon in CA. That's why CA-legal SKSes have the mutilated muzzle device or have a bare threaded muzzle

Some background: it appears the BATF, during the now-expired 1994 Federal AW ban, considered the M16A2 flash hider - common to preban AR15s - to be a (non-M203) grenade launcher. When co's started coming out with lookalike muzzle brakes that had no flash suppression properties but exact dimensions of 'A2 flash hider, they didn't get approved. Subsequent releases of 'A2-style muzzle brakes were dimensionally different enough they couldn't serve in a GL role.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

[Mike Searson]

This law was to keep people from using the boxes of rifle fired grenades you can pick up at Ace Hardware for 10 cents each.

[Rascal]

Well, my new to me SAR4800 does have a flashsuppersor/granade launcher, even thought it doesn't have the ring to make it a granade launcher. Am I gonna have to leave it off, or can I put it back on after I fix the mag?
I know that I am going to have to do the 10 or less foreign parts in order to not have to be in compliance with 922(r), when I put the pistol grip back on.

[Leo762]

I'd be careful here. A grenade launcher can bring a rifle into CA assault weapon class:



I'd think that a device whose primary function is a GL would be banned. Something that's just a support component and has other purposes would likely not.

Yugo SKSes were banned from CALIFORNIA due to the GL issue making it an assault weapon in CA. That's why CA-legal SKSes have the mutilated muzzle device or have a bare threaded muzzle

Some background: it appears the BATF, during the now-expired 1994 Federal AW ban, considered the M16A2 flash hider - common to preban AR15s - to be a (non-M203) grenade launcher. When co's started coming out with lookalike muzzle brakes that had no flash suppression properties but exact dimensions of 'A2 flash hider, they didn't get approved. Subsequent releases of 'A2-style muzzle brakes were dimensionally different enough they couldn't serve in a GL role.


Bill Wiese
San Jose

thanks for all the replys! in the law that you quoted it also lists a flash suppressor - but as long as the mag is fixed its legal, so if its in the same category i think a combo device should be OK, at least i hope so, would be really nice to have a stoll instead of the dsa deal

[Mike Searson]

Well, my new to me SAR4800 does have a flashsuppersor/granade launcher, even thought it doesn't have the ring to make it a granade launcher. Am I gonna have to leave it off, or can I put it back on after I fix the mag?
I know that I am going to have to do the 10 or less foreign parts in order to not have to be in compliance with 922(r), when I put the pistol grip back on.

I've often been curious about this.

922r has to do with building an unimportable weapon...in this case a FAL.

A fixed magazine FAL-like rifle or a Pistolgripless FAL (even the monstrosities with the ugly-*** Planet of the Apes thumbhole stocks...which really make no sense, since apes don't have thumbs) is no longer a FAL. I've often wondered if 922R would be moot on a CAL FAL.

When I built my caliban compliant rifles...I opted for the US parts so that when I went to NV...I could restore them to proper usage. I'd say lose the Grenade launching Combo device and opt for a more effective US made muzzle device. There is a muzzle brake made in the US that resembles an STG58 and hides 4" of bbl...YHM also makes a Phantom Flash Hider for the FAL now.

[bu-bye]

This law was to keep people from using the boxes of rifle fired grenades you can pick up at Ace Hardware for 10 cents each.

??? What are they?

[Mike Searson]

??? What are they?

Just a joke, dude.

You would think with the way the alpha-squirrels in the legislature act, though that the problem out there is the ability to launch rifle grenades and attach sound suppressors to semiautomatic replicas of military rifles.

[Rascal]

Ted,
It is my understanding that they were actually made by Imbel and Springfield imported them. They don't say Imbel, they say Springfield and have Springfields address and signature on the reciever.
After the ban Springfield replaced the pistol grip with the thumbhole stock, but after BATF ruled that the thumbhole stock was the same as a postol grip, importation stopped. When they were brought into the country, they were "sporting rifles". The 89 ban made them illegal.
As far as we know only around 1000 ever came into the country, in .223.
As it sits right now, all evil features were taken of the rifle, so it is in compliance with 922(r), but when I finally get to take it home and put the pistol grip back on, it has to beat the 10 or less foreign parts game, because only a U.S.A. made weapon can have "nonsporting" features.
And yes I did figure out how to fix the 10 round magazine.

[Rascal]

I've often been curious about this.

922r has to do with building an unimportable weapon...in this case a FAL.

A fixed magazine FAL-like rifle or a Pistolgripless FAL (even the monstrosities with the ugly-*** Planet of the Apes thumbhole stocks...which really make no sense, since apes don't have thumbs) is no longer a FAL. I've often wondered if 922R would be moot on a CAL FAL.

When I built my caliban compliant rifles...I opted for the US parts so that when I went to NV...I could restore them to proper usage. I'd say lose the Grenade launching Combo device and opt for a more effective US made muzzle device. There is a muzzle brake made in the US that resembles an STG58 and hides 4" of bbl...YHM also makes a Phantom Flash Hider for the FAL now.

Mike,
922(r) is still applicable on Cali FALs, as this is a Fedral law. You must still either be in compliance with 922(r) by having no "nonsporting" features or make it a U.S.A. made weapon by having 10 or less foreign parts so that you are no longer under 922(r) ruling, because 922(r) only pertains to Foreign made weapons, and NOT U.S.A. made weapons

[Mike Searson]

Mike,
922(r) is still applicable on Cali FALs, as this is a Fedral law. You must still either be in compliance with 922(r) by having no "nonsporting" features or make it a U.S.A. made weapon by having 10 or less foreign parts so that you are no longer under 922(r) ruling, because 922(r) only pertains to Foreign made weapons, and NOT U.S.A. made weapons

Then why is it ok to import an AK type rifle(WASR) with a single stack magazine? However if it is made to accept a double stack magazine it must have the compliant parts.

Same with the FAL...fixed magazine or pistolgrip less FAL Clones are not banned from importation. Just detachable magazine versions with Flash suppressors and pistolgrips are.

[Mike Searson]

18 U.S.C. sec 922(v)
(1) It shall be unlawful for a person to manufacture, transfer, or possess a semiautomatic assault weapon.
(2) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to the possession or transfer of any semiautomatic assault weapon otherwise lawfully possessed under Federal law on the date of the enactment of this subsection.
(3) Paragraph (1) shall not apply to-
(A) any of the firearms, or replicas or duplicates of the firearms, specified in Appendix A to this section, as such firearms were manufactured on October 1, 1993;
(B) any firearm that-
(i) is manually operated by bolt, pump, lever, or slide action;
(ii) has been rendered permanently inoperable; or
(iii) is an antique firearm;
(C) any semiautomatic rifle that cannot accept a detachable magazine that holds more than 5 rounds of ammunition; or
(D) any semiautomatic shotgun that cannot hold more than 5 rounds of ammunition in a fixed or detachable magazine.

[Rascal]

Then why is it ok to import an AK type rifle(WASR) with a single stack magazine? However if it is made to accept a double stack magazine it must have the compliant parts.

Same with the FAL...fixed magazine or pistolgrip less FAL Clones are not banned from importation. Just detachable magazine versions with Flash suppressors and pistolgrips are.

Because the single stack models only have 10 round mags and BATF deems this as "sporting". The single stack 10 round mags are not military spec and double stack mags are military spec. The 89 Ban has to do with importing/ manufacturing "military type weapons".

[Mike Searson]

Because the single stack models only have 10 round mags and BATF deems this as "sporting". The single stack 10 round mags are not military spec and double stack mags are military spec. The 89 Ban has to do with importing/ manufacturing "military type weapons".

And we are specifically talking about fixed magazine rifles.

(A) 18 U.S.C. sec 922(r) - Made it illegal to assemble "nonsporting" firearm banned from import using imported parts. This is usually referred to as "section 922(r )"

(B) 18 U.S.C. sec 921(a)(30) - The actual verbiage of what a "nonsporting¡" firearm is and bans it from import. (published in 1989) The exact words are :

1. "Military configuration", which consists of: accepting a detachable magazine, having a folding or telescoping stock, having a pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the stock, ability to accept a bayonet, having a flash suppressor, having a bipod, having a grenade launcher, and having night sights.

I don't really have a dog in this fight anymore...however, it might be a good letter to write to BATFE's Special Branch.

The way it is written makes it appear that fixed magazine rifles are exempt from 922 and compliance parts.