constructive possesion laws for AW?

[Jwood562]

Simply put. I have a dedicated ar-22 so it does not require a bullet button. I have other ca legal ar's with a bullet buttons.

when i travel with all my guns my hard case is not long enough to fit 2 rifles complete so I seperate them (uppers/lowers)

Will an uninformed LEO/sheriff/ATF agent who ever see the 223 upper and non bullet button lower from my ar-22 (even though they are seperate) and consider that as having a AW?

basically is there a constructive possession law for AWs?

[djleisure]

Nope - no constructive possession for the scenario you described. You're fine.

[tacticalcity]

My understand is that the "constructive possession" is an ATF Federal Level thing. There is no such concept under California law. Since on a federal level it is legal to own an AR, there is no fear of constructive possession.

There is a seperate issue I think you could run into, that is not based on the concept of "constructive possession". All the AR Lower Assembly Guides I have ever read warn against installing a pistol grip, collapsible stock, or other evil feature without first installing the magazine locking device. The argument for this is that the assembled lower could be considered an AW with those items attached even before you install the upper. If that is true (and I am not saying it is) then a multi-cal marked lower or a lower marked with a centerfire caliber marking would be an AW regardless of whether or not an upper was attached and the moment you removed your 22lr upper from your multi-cal lower (assuming that is what you have) then you just made an AW. A 22lr marked lower, or other non-centerfire caliber marked lower would of course not be an AW. I have no idea if any of this is true. I am just spelling a scenerio that could prove problematic for us multi-cal lower owners. It is a good question to raise with the legal experts here. But it has nothing to do with "constructive possession". Again, I am not stating a fact or trying to spread FUD, I am simply expanding on your original question.

When it comes to legal questions I usually refer people to Bill Wise to confirm stuff, so I recommend hunting him down and confirming what I posted. He's got the legal stuff down.

[djleisure]

Will an uninformed LEO/sheriff/ATF agent who ever see the 223 upper and non bullet button lower from my ar-22 (even though they are seperate) and consider that as having a AW?

Also, there is nothing you can do about this part. There is ALWAYS the possibility of an uninformed LEO making up whatever they want and arresting you. Just remember to clam up and lawyer up if that ever happens.

A lower with no upper on it is not a centerfire OR rimfire, so it does not matter if you have a BB on it or not. (Just don't get caught will a full-auto sear in it!)

[tacticalcity]

Would it not be considered "centerfire" or "rimfire" simply based upon the markings on the side of it? 9mm, 5.56mm, .223, etc are all "centerfire"? Leaving multi-cal a grey area? I've always been under the impression they were. Again...I am asking not telling. It would be great to be wrong on this one.

I am not even sure there is legislation on this one way or the other. I try to avoid those areas since it usually means an LEO/DA/Judge will decide...and that is generally a bad position to be in. If there is legislation on it, it would be an interesting read.

Might be best just to buy a bigger gun case. You can never have enough toys.

[djleisure]

Would it not be considered "centerfire" or "rimfire" simply based upon the markings on the side of it? 9mm, 5.56mm, .223, etc are all "centerfire"? Leaving multi-cal a grey area?

Nope, the markings on the side have nothing to do with the final determination of the actual rifle setup. "MULTI" is definitely not a gray area, it is just indicating that the lower could be ANY caliber INCLUDING .22LR. You can even have an AR pistol lower that does not specifically say "PISTOL" on it - I know a few people here have those.

The bullet button is only relevant when you have a centerfire upper attached to it. It doesn't matter when you add it in the build process (though it usually IS added towards the start) as long as it is added and the rifle is not "capable of accepting a detachable magazine" BEFORE attaching a centerfire upper.

[Cokebottle]

There is a seperate issue I think you could run into, that is not based on the concept of "constructive possession". All the AR Lower Assembly Guides I have ever read warn against installing a pistol grip, collapsible stock, or other evil feature without first installing the magazine locking device. The argument for this is that the assembled lower could be considered an AW with those items attached even before you install the upper. If that is true (and I am not saying it is) then a multi-cal marked lower or a lower marked with a centerfire caliber marking would be an AW regardless of whether or not an upper was attached and the moment you removed your 22lr upper from your multi-cal lower (assuming that is what you have) then you just made an AW. A 22lr marked lower, or other non-centerfire caliber marked lower would of course not be an AW. I have no idea if any of this is true. I am just spelling a scenerio that could prove problematic for us multi-cal lower owners. It is a good question to raise with the legal experts here. But it has nothing to do with "constructive possession". Again, I am not stating a fact or trying to spread FUD, I am simply expanding on your original question.

Whether marked Multi-Cal, or even 5.56, a lower (even complete) without an upper is neither centerfire NOR semi-automatic.
Remember, an AR lower with a bolt-action centerfire upper is still not an assault weapon. To be an assault weapon under SB23, it must be BOTH centerfire AND semi-automatic.
Remove the gas tube from your AR and it ceases to be an assault weapon.

[anniepoks]

Might be best just to buy a bigger gun case. You can never have enough toys.

might as well - since your inquiry is quite a bit in limbo in regards with a disassembled dedicated upper with 'multi' labeled lower MIXED with BB equipped other lowers, who knows when a slight chance a fed ends up stopping you for any reason and find out those toys in question. we can never know. better be safe i guess.
in case im issuing a FUD - my hands up, just sharing my safe opinion!
i do not know much about stopping powers (as far as traffic is concerned) the mighty Feds have but when you see blue lights behind you, you know sh#*t's
rolling downhills for sure.

[Cokebottle]

might as well - since your inquiry is quite a bit in limbo in regards with a disassembled dedicated upper with 'multi' labeled lower MIXED with BB equipped other lowers, who knows when a slight chance a fed ends up stopping you for any reason and find out those toys in question. we can never know. better be safe i guess.
in case im issuing a FUD - my hands up, just sharing my safe opinion!
i do not know much about stopping powers (as far as traffic is concerned) the mighty Feds have but when you see blue lights behind you, you know sh#*t's
rolling downhills for sure.

FUD.

The "feds" don't care about bullet buttons or anything else as long as it's not an SBR, AOW, or other NFA item.

But even replacing "feds" with "DOJ", it's still not a concern. A lower separated from the upper is neither centerfire nor semi-automatic.

[anniepoks]

thanks CokeBottle for the enlightment.
to the OP - to avert all this concerns and uncertainty, just buy a bigger case i guess?
OR since rifles need not to be disassembled nor locked when transported, why not just
ship them as is? easier to explain in regards what is needed to be BB'd or not when stopped.
again - just my opinion!

[CSACANNONEER]

FUD.

The "feds" don't care about bullet buttons or anything else as long as it's not an SBR, AOW, or other NFA item.

But even replacing "feds" with "DOJ", it's still not a concern. A lower separated from the upper is neither centerfire nor semi-automatic.

Yep!

[weezil_boi]

FUD.

The "feds" don't care about bullet buttons or anything else as long as it's not an SBR, AOW, or other NFA item.

But even replacing "feds" with "DOJ", it's still not a concern. A lower separated from the upper is neither centerfire nor semi-automatic.

+1 ... they even make crazy looking crossbow "uppers"