Accurate .308 besides M1A

[Rekrab]

Wow, JD Machine gets almost $400.00 just for a stripped lower, how are you guys putting together these ARs for 1200-1500 dollars?

If you go DPMS, you can get a stripped Tactical Machining Lower for $200. So far it's the cheapest lower I've seen on the market. AeroPrecision from 762Sass.com is the next cheapest at $299ish.

[vf111]

I own a few examples of what are typically the first "accurate" .308 semi autos that come to mind and are being talked about in this thread. I own a Fulton Peerless M1A with a heavy Krieger barrel (fully accurized national-match build), a LRB M25 built by Ted Brown (fully accurized as well in a JAE stock), and I also have an Armalite-pattern AR-10 with a 24" heavy barreled upper. I also have a STG-58 FAL, but being an 18" barrel carbine it doesn't really apply to this situation.

Here's my experience in a nutshell: The AR-10 shoots better than both the M1A's which are accurized rifles handbuilt by gunsmiths with very good reputations in the M1A circles. The AR-10 on the other hand uses an Aero lower and a 24" heavy barrel Armalite/Eagle arms upper I picked up on sale from Armalite for $600.

The bottom line is this: the AR-10 at around $1500 minus optics costs less than 50% of my cheapest M1A... and outshoots both the M1A's.

The basic rundown is that an M1A has all sorts of things that can influence accuracy that need attention and fine tuning... stock fit & bedding, trigger group tension, barrel ferrule tension, an oprod and spring that puts pressure on the barrel and moves around every shot, etc. An AR-10 on the other hand has nothing hanging off the barrel except a thin gas tube and there are no worries about bedding, stock flex, gas piston cleanliness, etc. As long as you hang a good barrel off the front of an AR platform and use a free float handguard it is almost guaranteed to be accurate.

You can get an M1A to be accurate... but it needs some TLC to get there and because of all the contact points, moving parts hanging off the barrel, etc all need to be "just right" to achieve that level off accuracy. That level of fine tuning means a higher price and it also means you might have to "tweak" some of those contact/wear points over the life of the barrel to maintain that accuracy. Remember, you are trying to turn the M1A (which was designed as a battle rifle) into something it wasn't intended to be (an accuracy rifle.) Yes, a good gunsmith can make them accurate but there are inherent limitations in the platform.

With an AR-10 on the other hand you just put a good barrel and free float handguard on the upper and shoot until you wear the barrel out as there are no extra contact or wear points that influence the barrel. The AR platform is just much more suited to accuracy with the free floating barrel, no moving parts hanging off the barrel or stock contact with the barrel, no worries about stock bedding/flex.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying an M1A can't be accurate (they usually are pretty accurate for a semi-auto, my experience has been most "standard" M1A rifles average about 1.5-2 MOA for 10-shot groups at 200Y while handbuilt accurized ones are usually around 1 MOA) but an AR-10 variant, as long as it has a decent barrel and a free float handguard will shoot right there with and often better than the accurized M1A's.

The other huge plus for the AR platform is optics mounting; you already have a rail on the top, just pick your rings/mount and a scope and you're done. If you get a standard M1A you need a mount. The good ones are somewhat expensive (around $250) and if your receiver was cast/machined out of spec you might have a poor fitting mount or you might even have to have a place like Sadlak make you a custom-fit mount for the best lockup. The other option is to get the LRB M25 receiver with a built in scope rail-- the M25 receiver takes all the problems out of mounting an optic on an M1A because of the built in rail but you still have restricted bolt and chamber access for cleaning purposes plus the ejection path of the M1A means the ejecting brass is probably going to put a few marks in your scope's windage knob especially if it's a tall target knob.

As far as to why I keep the M1A's around when the cheaper AR-10 outshoots them... I just like the M1A platform. They feel and sound neat and that's enough reason for me to keep them. My Fulton Peerless is in a heavy match walnut stock and it's very pretty to look at plus the M1A national match iron sights are fantastic. It's just fun to take it up to the steel range. The LRB M25 looks cool and is fun to shoot as well. The LRB was also a 2 year plus quest of finding all TRW USGI parts on my own and then having it built exactly as I wanted it so I'm kind of attached to it.

In summary, if you want a sub-MOA .308 semi auto my experience has been that you'll have the best chance of meeting that accuracy goal for the least investment if you start with an AR-style rifle.

Excellent post. While I'm an M14 fanboy, I can't disagree with anything you've written. An AR-10 is inherently more accurate than an M14 based wholly on the way they're designed. One thing to keep in mind is the M14 is based on a 1930's design (M1 Garand) while the AR-10 is based on a more modular and modern design. Call me old fashioned but there's just....something.....about steel and wood that aluminum and plastic can't match.

[frigginchi]

I think The original AR10 was developed in the early 50s. M14 was developed in 1954.

Excellent post. While I'm an M14 fanboy, I can't disagree with anything you've written. An AR-10 is inherently more accurate than an M14 based wholly on the way they're designed. One thing to keep in mind is the M14 is based on a 1930's design (M1 Garand) while the AR-10 is based on a more modular and modern design. Call me old fashioned but there's just....something.....about steel and wood that aluminum and plastic can't match.

[E Pluribus Unum]

I think The original AR10 was developed in the early 50s. M14 was developed in 1954.

Development of the AR10 started in 1956 and ended in 1960.

[frigginchi]

Something like that What I was trying to say is that they were developed roughly at the same time.

Development of the AR10 started in 1956 and ended in 1960.

[Kiba]

Excellent post. While I'm an M14 fanboy, I can't disagree with anything you've written. An AR-10 is inherently more accurate than an M14 based wholly on the way they're designed. One thing to keep in mind is the M14 is based on a 1930's design (M1 Garand) while the AR-10 is based on a more modular and modern design. Call me old fashioned but there's just....something.....about steel and wood that aluminum and plastic can't match.

Wow. It's usually the M1A fanboys who get all flustered when you say the AR platform is more accurate... doesn't matter at that point if you own both platforms even when you present them with facts.

I recognize the inherent design limitations and difficulties in accurizing an M1A and therefore don't have false expections as to what kind of accuracy they will consistently achieve. It's pretty amazing to me they shoot as well as they do with all the "stuff" that touches the barrel and moves around with every shot-- and they do it with a very high record of reliability.

I don't hate M1A's-- otherwise I wouldn't own two of them. I like both the M1A and the AR-10... therefore I own both. And like you said, it's hard to beat the feel of a wood stocked M1A. That's why I like my Fulton so much. Besides, having one or a couple of each platform gives you more options when you go out shooting.

[frigginchi]

You can have your wood

[vf111]

Steel & wood - it's like looking at a young Grace Kelly...
AR's - like looking at Lady Gaga...

[Len]

If you go DPMS, you can get a stripped Tactical Machining Lower for $200. So far it's the cheapest lower I've seen on the market. AeroPrecision from 762Sass.com is the next cheapest at $299ish.

Where can I buy the Tactical Machining lower?

[vf111]

Wow. It's usually the M1A fanboys who get all flustered when you say the AR platform is more accurate... doesn't matter at that point if you own both platforms even when you present them with facts.

I don't get too bent out of shape over the AR vs. M14 argument. They both have their place in the civilian world and both currently have their place in .mil. I have both - I just happen like the M14 platform a lot more.

[Rekrab]

Here: http://www.tacticalmachining.com/category.php?cid=12

Unfortunately it looks like they're out of stock. At that price I'm not surprised. You might want to call and ask when they expect to have more. They're very friendly and helpful over the phone. I purchased mine on a Friday night and they had it shipped on Monday morning. Still waiting on Delivery, should come in on Monday.

[Grassninja]

The M14 distributes a uniquely American brand of justice, firing bald eagles down range to eat the hearts out of the enemy.

.308 AR's do not...

And before someone comes at me with some M110 debate, I'm just playing around.

[X-NewYawker]

All of my rifles shoot 1/4" 1-shot groups too.

I had a Remngton VSSF in .223 shoot 1/4 inch out of the box, stock trigger, LOD stock from McMillan -- with 55 grain Remington Match ammo.
So of course I sold it.
No fun.

[X-NewYawker]

PS -- they BOTH cost too much! A gun shouldn't cost what a Datsun B-210 cost in 1977!

[evollep3]

When I think of an accurate .308, M1A doesn't come to mind. Generally speaking.

same here first thing that comes to mind is a Bolt Gun and Skeets DTA