408 cheytac?'s

[duraglock]

Got to meet the guys from emds arms at a 1000yd match in socal and talking to them they were really a class act.Tom Miller is also a great guy and always had great support of the rifle. Great product great customer service and these things hold their value. . I think they also said they gave several rifles to sf elements of the Marine Corps to use in Afghanistan . I think they had those rifles listed for sale once. Your not going to shoot that many rounds in a session so price of ammo is not bad. You will have to relaod for it but thats part of the fun with big bores.

[brando]

The Turkish and Polish SF are fielding Cheytac M200s in small numbers, from what I've heard. Apparently NSW spent the most time testing it among USSOCCOM elements, though they decided to go with .338LM (and or .300WM). Tier One units have tested it as well but I don't know if they've employed it. Either way, they are such small numbers that it shouldn't be that big of a deal.

The bottom line is that ELR cartridges almost exclusively rely on CNC lathed solids, which are expensive compared to standard match HPBT jacketed lead designs. Bullets are the main consumables so therefor they'll always be more expensive to shoot in any reasonable numbers. The same goes for .416 Barrett, though that round hasn't performed as well as the .408 and .375 variant. .338LM is being widely adopted by NATO countries and it has a long, established history. It will slowly come down in price (the main cost right now is brass). .50BMG has the main advantage of payload capability that the smaller calibers do not have and for that reason will always have a place at the table.

The main problem with ELR shooting as a military application is that the distances involved (2000 yards and beyond) are such that first round hits require above average skill and developing that skill requires lots of training. It's much easier and reliable in this day and age to rely on CAS or UAV strikes than rely on a small team to make long range shots.

[WeekendWarrior]

Hahahaha, I saw that show too! Pretty sweet rifle, dont think I will ever be able to afford it though, as I stuggle to feed my .308 as it is.

[brando]

I would stay away from this round unless your filthy rich. Doesn't the rifle cost around 10K? I think the amount of money needed for even reloading these rounds ($8-10), will keep them in the exotic department, thus prices never coming down. I know it's attractive as holding all the records right now, but I can't see this becoming a widely used weapon/round. If you end up getting one, please don't be afraid to show and tell(lots of photos and range report). It's on my dream list, but not very practical. I shoot the .338 Lapua mag and couldn't be happier. I really can't see myself shooting past 1500 yards anyway. Good luck with whatever path you choose.

For what it's worth, while factory ammo for .408 Cheytac is expensive, anyone contemplating making the most of a rifle in that caliber should be hand loading ammo. Brass is a little more expensive than .338LM brass at around $2.50ea, but most of us are getting between 8-12 loads from it these days (earlier brass was too soft). That essentially cuts the cost per round in half as the main cost becomes bullets. The highest performance bullets cost about $2.25ea but will get you into the 2000+ yard area. Less expensive bullets can be had as an alternative though, but you'll be in .338LM ranges instead. Dies aren't hard to find either, so it's not the mythical caliber it once was.

On top of that, yes, this is a caliber that is not for the average shooter. .338LM is good to a mile and most folks won't take it to its limits. However, if you want to go past a mile it requires more of a commitment. One other little .408CT advantage a lot of people don't know about is the 305gr solid that, when loaded to about 3200fps is an extremely low max ord to 1000 yards - pretty much point and shoot.

[brando]

Or if anyone knows of a dealer with an EDM/cheytac in stock in so-cal please let me know asi would like to check one out in person

EDM is having a special on .408 rifles - basically $1000 off the price is you pay 100% up front. You can also find used ones on Gunbroker sometimes for less than the $7600 NIB price.

[titus7]

Yeah everyone keeps telling me about the cost of rounds for the 408 and yet when I had my 338 lapua, factory ammo was between $100-$120 per box of 20 and for the first round of loading wasnt too much cheaper. It wasnt until the second time loading that you really notice the cost difference between factory loads and reloads. But even at that I have been finding factory loads of 408 for about $120 per 20 and the reloading components arent much more than the 338. Just what I have found. Again I dont own a 408...yet but just from what lil research that I have found hasnt really proven to me that the 338 is that much cheaper especially for 600-800yards less.

I am still contemplating my next rifle and 408 has been a dream for quite awhile so that is where my main focus is but when it actually comes to dropping the ca$hola down I may go with something else. I am just a big fan if the big boomers and the distance that can be had, if you know what I mean

[titus7]

I noticed that Tom Miller has the same area code as I do but does anyone actually know where he is located and if he has a store?? I could call him but I dont wanna bug him until I have all of the money in hand.

[bridgeport]

Titus, I am with you on this, that being that if 408 is what you want...
grab one up with gusto and enjoy the heck out of it. Some guys like cars and motorcycles, others like totally cool rifles... some like all three.

[Butthead]

I noticed that Tom Miller has the same area code as I do but does anyone actually know where he is located and if he has a store?? I could call him but I dont wanna bug him until I have all of the money in hand.

Unless something has recently changed Tom does not have a shop. He is a great guy and can answer all of your questions.

[rodog]

+1 for Tom Miller, great guy and a wealth of information. Titus and Brando, if I may ask, where besides EDM/Vigilance are you finding loaded rounds? I for one, am hoping for a comeback since it seemed the 408 was going away due to LRB's actions with the round.

[bomb_on_bus]

The .408 is a great round.

I would recommend it over the .50bmg if you want to shoot past 2,000yrds. I have seen the .408 EDM used going for 5k several times on gunbroker. The sellers start high sometimes around 7k but eventually the gun just sits and gets a hundred relists and the seller finally takes the 5k bid. I would definately recommend the EDM .408 over the cheytac for cost reasons. The
M200 can go as high as 12k depending on the seller. Then you spend 3-4k on glass and 2k on a ballistic comp and another 1k for 150 rounds of .408

The bullet was engineered with LONG distances in mind and there are numerous field shots at 2,600 yrds or longer. The only problem is no one has jumped on board to mass market the round yet. I bet the cost would drop to around 3 dollars if Hornaday or Federal churned these out. If that would be the case I would by ammo by the case and sell off all my other target rifles to fund the .408

Tom lives up the hill from me in the Tehachapi area and we bump into each other from time to time out at the range. He owns several of the EDM rigs and even helped with getting my first .308 EDM a couple years back. He is a great person to talk to and even showed a few pointers of how to get better accuracy out of my gun while at the range a year or two ago.

[brando]

You can buy loaded ammo directly from Cheytac, but you can make it yourself cheaper and better. A few years ago it was really hard to find components, but nowadays it's no problem. Sure, it's not anywhere near the level of volume and variety as .338LM, but keep in mind that cartridge is from the mid-1980s. It takes a while for things to catch on.

The early batches of brass from Jamison was too soft as was the brass from EDM via Bertram (I still have a good 150 cases that are too soft to shoot even starting loads). However, Jamison fixed the problem and are now putting out quality brass (head stamped with two stars). They cost about $2.50ea but will stand up to 10 or more loads.

For bullets there are more options than before. Initially LRBT designed the bullets, but they went under. Jamison, which is owned by Cheytac now, started putting out the LRBT profile bullets, namely the 305 and 419gr copper/nickel solids. Hooker also took over from LRBT, continuing to make solids for other calibers as well, but it sounds like they're getting out of that side of the biz. Lehigh has makes the .416 Barrett bullet exclusively and starting last year slightly downsized it for .408 at 385gr. There are some jacketed lead .408 bullets out there as well, but they're not a whole lot cheaper. The Jamison 419gr is the top choice for taking it to extreme range, staying supersonic to about 2300 yards. The 305gr solid falls out of the sky quicker and is designed for shooting flat to 1000 yards. I like the Lehigh bullet for shooting inside of 2000 yards - it's almost half the cost of the 419, so I tend to have some of these loaded when I'm at Angeles and people ask to shoot my rifle.

For powder, RL-25 is the most popular powder for .408 loading with Fed215 Magnum Match primers. Lawton Barrels in Dillon, MT make excellent .408 dies as does CH4D (I use their large bushing neck sizer and straight line seater dies); they're also the subject matter experts with regards to making barrels for shooting solids (they make all of the Cheytac barrels).

So if you want a .408, I suggest you get into handloading for accuracy. More over, if it's extreme range you want to shoot, I'd recommend a .375/408 aka .375 Cheytac as it's a superior ELR round. You don't need the M200 nor the Windrunner to shoot either caliber, but they sure are fun. I'm just glad I don't have to jump or hump it anywhere

[C.G.]

If you don't mind a single shot, Spider Arms has a less expensive version than EDM. I like my Ferret .338LM.

http://www.ferret50.com/

[brando]

There are many options for .408 (and .375/408) rifles besides the Windrunner and M200. I tell most people to just call Bobby at Lawton Barrels and have them build one up on their actions for a lot less.

[rodog]

Thanks for the info Brando, I didn't know that other companies were picking up where LRBT left off. To the OP, the cool thing about the EDM windrunner is that you can get different barrels/bolts (for about 2K) and its a takedown. Effect on accuracy with a takedown? unsure as the Pala range (nearest to me with 1000 yd range) has a "nothing over .33 cal" limit due to the past incident.