Small Frame .308s

[Silence Dogood]

POF and Dark Storm Industries are both now making small frame 308s. They may not be the only ones and maybe this is not new. I was unaware. Has anyone tried one of these?

https://youtu.be/KlnlMXbNMYg

https://youtu.be/Tbb9No5s_sY

How do they compare to the PSA 308s which use some small frame components (like the carbine length receiver extension) but not all (charging handle and takedown/pivot pins are longer than mil spec. small frame) and certainly are not featherweight.

https://forum.308ar.com/topic/17983-here-we-go-again-pa10-gen-3/

I am not a member over there but I stumbled across this post about the PSA 308. Do you think that these small frame 308s will have any of the same issues/ issues of criticism as the PA10?

[sigstroker]

The PA10 is not designed to be a featherweight. It has a beefy barrel. Who wants a featherweight .308 anyway?

[damon1272]

[Silence Dogood]

The PA10 is not designed to be a featherweight. It has a beefy barrel. Who wants a featherweight .308 anyway?

[SanDiego619]

I don't think the weight difference between an AR10 and AR15 is in the lower or buffer system. It's mainly the barrel. So did they put a skinny little barrel on an AR10?

[kcheung2]

I'm really skeptical of this.
1) 308 ARs already accept most AR15 parts. The trigger & stock is what most people customize, and those already can accept AR 15 parts. Using AR15 handguards is a slight positive. Many mfg's make a 556 & 308 version of their handguards, so it's just a matter of buying the right one for your build. Perhaps if one had a spare AR15 handguard lying around, that would save having to buy another part. Or if a mfg had a specific handguard that a consumer really, really liked, and it came only in AR15 size, then this would be an advantage. The ability to use AR15 charging handles is indeed new, so I'll give them that. But that seems to also imply that the bcg is proprietary, because right now there's a semi-standard DPMS 308 bcg which requires a 308-specific charging handle. Going with something that accepts AR15 charging handles is completely proprietary. Not a big negative either though, since it's generally a good idea to get a bcg from the same mfg as the upper parts.

2) less mass ≠ less recoil. In fact it's the opposite, less mass means more felt recoil. We always give advice to new shooters who assume a smaller pistol is easier to shoot, when in fact it's the opposite because the smaller frame has more felt recoil. Well that physics applies to rifles too. In a hunting situation a lighter rifle is preferred, but those situations involve a whole lot of walking but firing just a few rounds all day. So light weight with a harsh recoil is acceptable. With a semi-auto, mag-fed 308, you can be sure I'll be firing more than just a few rounds, and that painful recoil won't be appreciated.

They do say they reduce the recoil via muzzle brake, but really...do they need to go to SHOT show to introduce a muzzle device? I have cheap muzzle devices on my 308 ARs, and they do indeed reduce felt recoil. So yeah that is one method of achieving their goal. But brakes are nothing new, and I bought my brakes for under $50 each.

It would be great if there were a lighter 308 AR standard, but what I've seen here looks unimpressive. There was a post in another thread about SHOT show and someone mentioned that the show is full of liars lying. While I wouldn't go that far, it seems like it has as much vaporware as the CES show.

[morthrane]

Is this like the DPMS Gii/G2 .308?

https://www.americanrifleman.org/content/review-dpms-gii-ar-308/

Difference mainly in the receivers and bolt/carrier.

[k1dude]

I'm glad to see all these new smaller lowers to lower the weight of a .308 AR. For decades I've wondered when someone was going to do this. There's no reason for a .308 AR to weigh so much. They've been pigs for far too long.

I just might have to pick one up.

[SanDiego619]

I'm glad to see all these new smaller lowers to lower the weight of a .308 AR. For decades I've wondered when someone was going to do this. There's no reason for a .308 AR to weigh so much. They've been pigs for far too long.

I just might have to pick one up.

How much of the weight is in the lower though? An AR10 lower is not much heavier than an AR15 lower. The stripped lowers are barely heavier...

[k1dude]

How much of the weight is in the lower though? An AR10 lower is not much heavier than an AR15 lower. The stripped lowers are barely heavier...

An LR308 upper and lower are surprisingly heavy. I don't have the numbers, but it's noticeable. The BCG is also pretty darn heavy, which it appears they addressed with these new lightweights.

[theLBC]

i can see not wanting the weight if you are carrying it a long way.
on the other hand, lightweight .308 can be unpleasant for some to shoot, and some might find it more difficult to manage recoil as well.
i bet you can find a nice one used.

i am old (and lazy) so more of a put a heavy rifle on a tripod sort of guy

[damon1272]

Well the small frame adams arms I had did really well at mitigating recoils. Not much more than a 223. The rifle weighted under 8 lbs. not like the 308 is a shoulder pounder.

[theLBC]

Well the small frame adams arms I had did really well at mitigating recoils. Not much more than a 223. The rifle weighted under 8 lbs. not like the 308 is a shoulder pounder.

i don't disagree, but i am just passing on what i have read in countless discussions on various forums.
lots of shooters think .308 recoil is a lot, and shoot smaller calibers for that reason (as well as improved bc).
precision rifle shooters are encouraged to learn on something besides .308 so they don't struggle with recoil management.
* when i say recoil management, i mean keeping the target in the scope and spotting your hits.

my dad's .308 lever gun has a good kick, but .308 gas guns with a brake on them are pretty soft shooting imo.

[oktavist]

How do they manage to cram a .308 into those tiny little .223 mags? I'm trying right now, and I can't get it to fit...

[theLBC]

How do they manage to cram a .308 into those tiny little .223 mags? I'm trying right now, and I can't get it to fit...

small hammer. be careful.