PCC .40 Carbine at Front Sight.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Just got back from a trip to Front Sight with my Ruger PCC.40 Carbine.

The gun performed well, and it is now officially Broken In.

.40 caliber holes are much easier to see on a target than .22 sized holes.

Controlled pairs are easy to get off as are head shots. My bore to sight offset is <1" at 7-15 yards dead on at 25. My sight in group 5 shots at 50 yards off a rest was <1.5" with a Red Dot Optic.

I used all 4 of my Glock 22 round mags, and I had one that would stovepipe a round every so often (it now has a big X on it) but once I figured out how to lock the bolt open with my left thumb (thanks Mr. Reid) I was good to go and could run the gun as fast or faster than any of the AR's in the class.

The class had 22 people with 1 AK, my gun, and the rest AR's. I had to fight Management a little to get in the class and they said I couldn't take the test with the gun. Then I found out they were letting M1 CArbines in the class and I made a stink big time.

The .40 S&W out of a 16" bbl has 2.5X the Knockdown Power (TKO) of the .30 cal Carbine, and even 9mm rounds are almost 1.5X TKO over the .30 Carbine..

I sent a note to Piazza about this and will share it when he responds. Too many of these guns out there to ignore just because they are "Pistol Caliber" If that's the case then my Marlin 1894 in .44 Magnum would be kept out as well. and since the farthest we shot was 100 yards I see no reason why these guns should be excluded.

All the instructors were interested in and duly impressed with the gun and I am hoping for some movement from Management.

I burned up about 300 rounds in the 3 days we were in that class, then we went to a shotgun class for another two days.

A great time was had by all. You guys should go, as the weather is Perfect right now.

Randy

[hermosabeach]

30 carbine

Brand Projectile 3-Shot Average 5-Shot Average
Hornady 110 grain FTX 1895 feet per sec. 1844 feet per sec.
Privi Partizan 110 gr FMJ 1941 feet per sec. 1978 feet per sec.


How does 40 cal have 2.5x the power?

The .40 S&W out of a 16" bbl has 2.5X the Knockdown Power (TKO) of the .30 cal Carbine, and even 9mm rounds are almost 1.5X TKO over the .30 Carbine..

[hermosabeach]

S&W .40 cal 16" barrel

Federal 180 Grain and Gold Dot 1142 FPS

18" raises you up by 23 FPS to 1165


KE= 1/2 Mass X Velocity squared

and who cares about the chiropractor - your gun- have fun

[Olderfart]

The .40 S&W out of a 16" bbl has 2.5X the Knockdown Power (TKO) of the .30 cal Carbine, and even 9mm rounds are almost 1.5X TKO over the .30 Carbine..
Randy

Sorry BUT - I don't think so -

Also you would be better off with a 165gr.

My loads = 1350FPS +/- 20FPS 16" barrel.
I could go hotter but I would prefer to re-load my brass more than once.
165 @ 1350FPS drops less than a 180Gr at 1150FPS - Which is a very hot load. The extra 6" of barrel really isn't necessary utilizing the 180GR. Kalifornia so you are screwed. 165GR can utilize the longer barrel length better. I wouldn't feel comfortable trying to get a 180Gr much faster out of a 40SW.

Glad you had fun at Front Sight - That is one of the things on my bucket list $$$$ being my limiting factor.

[tuna quesadilla]

30 carbine

Brand Projectile 3-Shot Average 5-Shot Average
Hornady 110 grain FTX 1895 feet per sec. 1844 feet per sec.
Privi Partizan 110 gr FMJ 1941 feet per sec. 1978 feet per sec.


How does 40 cal have 2.5x the power?

The .40 S&W out of a 16" bbl has 2.5X the Knockdown Power (TKO) of the .30 cal Carbine, and even 9mm rounds are almost 1.5X TKO over the .30 Carbine..

This guy has a really weird fetish for his .40 cal rifle. He's posted numerous threads over and over since he bought it, and he positively will not listen to anybody who posts numbers, data, or reason. Don't engage with him. To him, .40 S&W is a tactical nuke that we're all foolish not to use.

[Olderfart]

This guy has a really weird fetish for his .40 cal rifle. He's posted numerous threads over and over since he bought it, and he positively will not listen to anybody who posts numbers, data, or reason. Don't engage with him. To him, .40 S&W is a tactical nuke that we're all foolish not to use.

WEEELLLLL - Everybody has their fetish - Just don't try to push it upon me unless of course you are a desirable Female - Open to discussion and I can be PMed LOLOL

I do believe the 40SW is one of the best PCC rounds or PPC (Perfect Pistol Carbine) Minimal recoil in a PCC, more punch than a 9mm, similar round count to a 9mm, drop out to 300 meters is just about the same as a 9mm, Much better than 45ACP in PCC - 9mm, 40SW & 45ACP being the most common.
Is there a better platform? Yup but Hey diversity is what makes the world go round.
In an SBR or AR pistol platform is is hard to beat. An SBR in 5.56 or similar is blinding a night. 10mm well that is a whole other story and ammo / reloading cost goes up about 1/3 from a 40SW.

[kcheung2]

This guy has a really weird fetish for his .40 cal rifle. He's posted numerous threads over and over since he bought it, and he positively will not listen to anybody who posts numbers, data, or reason. Don't engage with him. To him, .40 S&W is a tactical nuke that we're all foolish not to use.

That makes more sense. I was wondering what this Total Knockdown Power (TKO, but what's the "O"?) was, and what units it was measured in. Foolish me, I should have known that IS the unit. I guess .30Carbine is the base unit at 1.00 TKO, and .40 is measured at 2.5 TKOs. As for the measurement device, it's just OP himself.

[kcheung2]

...

Also, I was talking TKO not Muzzle Energy TKO is the results at the target not the muzzle.

That formula is: Bullet Weight in Grains x Diameter x Velocity divided by 7000.

So using your velicity numbers for .30 carbine 110 x 1900 x .308 /7000 =9.2 TKO

.40 S&W 180 x 1200 x .401 /7000 = 12.4 TKO
9MM 147 gr x .355 x 1350/7000 = 10.0 TKO

My Chrony is reading the S&B .40 S&W at more like 1400 fps and the 165 gr Federal stuff at @1500 fps out of this gun. So 14.5 TKO for the 180's and 14.1 for the 165's. So By my numbers it is 1.5X the knockdown power of the .30 carb.
...

So where am I going wrong?

Randy

So let's say I had a half inch sized, 1 pound rock, and threw it at 30 mph (44fps)

(7000 grains x 44 fps x .5)/7000 =22 TKO.

And since this equation is "results at the target not the muzzle" then at 1000 yds, my rock that I threw at only 30mph is TWICE the TKO of your .40.

Or let's say I had another rock that also weighed 1 pound, but it was less dense (more porous), so then the equation looks like

(7000 x 44 x 1)/7000 = 44 TKO. So this 2nd rock which is less dense has twice the knockdown power of the previous, denser rock? And 4x the power of a .40?

hmmm, I don't think so.

[sigstroker]

That makes more sense. I was wondering what this Total Knockdown Power (TKO, but what's the "O"?) was, and what units it was measured in. Foolish me, I should have known that IS the unit. I guess .30Carbine is the base unit at 1.00 TKO, and .40 is measured at 2.5 TKOs. As for the measurement device, it's just OP himself.

TKO is Taylor Knock Out, a formula cooked up for African hunting. It's validity against big animals has been questioned, and it's use wrt to shooting humans makes no sense at all.

[alpha_romeo_XV]

TKO = technical knock out i.e. a KO called by the referee.

[kcheung2]

That's right it does. But only if the material is the same which would double the weight. You are talking apples and oranges

8 lb Sledge Hammer at 100 fps. 56,000 x 3.0 x 100/7000 = 2400 TKO ! and that's why they use Sledge Hammers to break rocks rather than Claw Hammers! I doubt many would live thru a sledge shot to the chest?

Randy

At 1000 yds? 10 miles? After all your equation is "at the target not the muzzle" I could stand 1000 yds away and take your 8 lb sledgehammer tosses all day.

[Olderfart]

W.R Buchanan -
I'm not gone be a beatin on you also about LBS of energy power but either your Chronograph needs calibration or the one i used does.
S&B 180 is more like 1030FPS +/- 20
Federal 165 is around 1250 +/- 30
If the one I used is out of calibration, My 165s would be around 1500 + FPS. I don't think that to be true. Check yours - I don't own one - And get back to me. I am curious now.
I'm waiting on Black Friday to make several purchases one of them being a Chronograph - Still haven't made my mind up yet on which one.

[elSquid]

Also, I was talking TKO not Muzzle Energy TKO is the results at the target not the muzzle.

That formula is: Bullet Weight in Grains x Diameter x Velocity divided by 7000.

So using your velicity numbers for .30 carbine 110 x 1900 x .308 /7000 =9.2 TKO

.40 S&W 180 x 1200 x .401 /7000 = 12.4 TKO
9MM 147 gr x .355 x 1350/7000 = 10.0 TKO

[sigstroker]

Do the people questioning it have more experience in shooting said animals, than the guy who shot everything with everything available over 100 years ago?

Randy

They shot enough to know better. Because people were misapplying it (like in this thread) to scenarios that weren't relevant at all to it's purpose. Which is how a load does against large African animals. Want to use it to compare a .375 H&H Magnum to a .418 Whizzenblaster? Relevant. Compare freakin pistol rounds to use against humans? Ridiculous.

[beanz2]

Just got back from a trip to Front Sight with my Ruger PCC.40 Carbine.

The gun performed well, and it is now officially Broken In.

.40 caliber holes are much easier to see on a target than .22 sized holes.

Controlled pairs are easy to get off as are head shots. My bore to sight offset is <1" at 7-15 yards dead on at 25. My sight in group 5 shots at 50 yards off a rest was <1.5" with a Red Dot Optic.

I used all 4 of my Glock 22 round mags, and I had one that would stovepipe a round every so often (it now has a big X on it) but once I figured out how to lock the bolt open with my left thumb (thanks Mr. Reid) I was good to go and could run the gun as fast or faster than any of the AR's in the class.

The class had 22 people with 1 AK, my gun, and the rest AR's. I had to fight Management a little to get in the class and they said I couldn't take the test with the gun. Then I found out they were letting M1 CArbines in the class and I made a stink big time.

The .40 S&W out of a 16" bbl has 2.5X the Knockdown Power (TKO) of the .30 cal Carbine, and even 9mm rounds are almost 1.5X TKO over the .30 Carbine..

I sent a note to Piazza about this and will share it when he responds. Too many of these guns out there to ignore just because they are "Pistol Caliber" If that's the case then my Marlin 1894 in .44 Magnum would be kept out as well. and since the farthest we shot was 100 yards I see no reason why these guns should be excluded.

All the instructors were interested in and duly impressed with the gun and I am hoping for some movement from Management.

I burned up about 300 rounds in the 3 days we were in that class, then we went to a shotgun class for another two days.

A great time was had by all. You guys should go, as the weather is Perfect right now.

Randy

Randy, are they still going out to 200 yards? How did the PCC do at that distance? I will be there next week with a 5.56 AR.