Which AR Lower?!?!?!?!

[bikertrash2006]

Okay, the eternal question:

Which AR Lower do I go with? I know it has to be off list but there are so many. Stag Arms is mentioned quite frequently but I can't find much about there stripped lowers on their website, especially the price.

Has anyone used or heard of anyone using any products from Gunsmoke Enterprises (GSE)? Their pretty proud of their work on the GSE website. But, their lowers are really cheap:

http://www.gunsmokeenterprises.net/RECIEVERS.htm

They aren't listed so I assume I can pick one up, but $139, should I be afraid of that?

[kantstudien]

It really doesn't matter which one you choose. Just don't choose a banned one.

[C.G.]

Okay, the eternal question:

Which AR Lower do I go with? I know it has to be off list but there are so many. Stag Arms is mentioned quite frequently but I can't find much about there stripped lowers on their website, especially the price.

Has anyone used or heard of anyone using any products from Gunsmoke Enterprises (GSE)? Their pretty proud of their work on the GSE website. But, their lowers are really cheap:

http://www.gunsmokeenterprises.net/RECIEVERS.htm

They aren't listed so I assume I can pick one up, but $139, should I be afraid of that?

Almost any lower is fine, as long as it is in spec and the finish well done.
Might want to check this out:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/calgunsale/messages?o=1

[matarlegoate]

I've never heard of them, but then again, I haven't been looking for THAT long. Lots of other options available in the same price range.

Remember not to skimp a few dollars here to end up spending a lot more later.

PM sent.

[bwiese]

Gunsmoke Enterprises makes nicely-finished lowers. I've seen and held several.

GSE has been in the AR biz for some time.

Again, *any* off-list forged AR lower - other than Vulcan or the carbon-fiber Bushmaster - will make a durable, 100% reliable and accurate rifle. Do not worry about brands.

(If you are getting a 308 Vulcan/Hesse is your only legal choice and they can/do work. I also do not recommend a carbon-fiber lower for someone's first/only AR.)

[blkA4alb]

You will be fine with almost any lower you choose. I have two High Standard lowers and an Ameetec and they're both great. The Ameetec does have a smoother finish however than the High Standards but I'm not complaining.

[Jicko]

Couple of steps: (should be done BEFORE you ask....)

1) Understand the FAQ http://www.calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm

2) Understand the "AW ID guide" (laws & CCR are in there), and READ the list in there http://www.ag.ca.gov/firearms/awguide/index.html

3) Find ANY lower receiver that is NOT ON THE LIST.... (hence... OLL, OFF-LIST-LOWER receiver).... a "search" on this forum will actually show you a lot of them... with reviews etc...

There is no 1 eternal question, JUST homeworks to be done. If you can't understand the above and if you can't keep yourself out of "trouble" based on the above "well written" and "detailed" documents, maybe, an OLL is NOT for you.

*cheers* happy labor day!

[bikertrash2006]

I have read the FAQ and understand it. I also have a copy of "The List" and this isn't my first AR.

I've been shooting AR's since I joined the Military in 1989. I have owned several. I am from Nevada where AR's were on the shelf at every gun store in town. I sold my ARs and quite a few weapons when I moved to California. I wasn't aware that California made it possible to purchase or own AR's. A friend of mine refered me to this site.

I have only owned Bushmaster and Colt rifles (AR-types) and I have ton of parts (uppers, barrels, stocks, grips, carry handles, muzzle breaks) that I kept from rifles after making mods to them.

All I am asking if people could offer some advice on OLL brands. I would love to by a lower from Bushmaster but the only CA legal one they have, they only sell as a complete rifle.

One of the things that some helpful people have mentioned to me is that I shouldn't buy crap. So, I don't want to buy crap. I pulled out one of my Shotgun News issues and saw that GSE has lowers for a nice price. So, I thought I might ask some fellow members here if they had an opinion about them considering that their name isn't on "The List"!

Those of you that have actually answered my question, thank you so much and keep the opinions coming. You guys are cool!

Also, since I am not planning on living in CA forever, I'm planning on buying one of the mag lock kits that one of our members offers. That way, I can have my "evil" features and still be able to return my AR to true self, when I leave state.

Oh yeah, the "Eternal Question" was only a guy joke: Which lower, which gun next, which motor for my 57 Chevy, which car, etc...

[bwiese]

Biker,

RELAX. Just go get some off-list lowers. They will all work/look fine and are all the same (except Vulcan and the carbon-fiber Bushmasters).

Remember, on an AR the upper does all the work. As long as the holes are drilled OK on the lower in relation to the magwell, and the threading for the receiver extension ("buffer tube") is drilled straight, all is well.

The lower receiver is your LEAST worry w/regards to overall AR quality. Much more important are the quality of the small parts, bolt/carrier assy, and upper receiver (I am hearing reports of varying quality in uppers). Also chrome-lined barrel w/milspec chamber is the key to a top-notch functioning rifle that can use a variety of ammo and not require a ton of cleaning....

[bikertrash2006]

Biker,

RELAX. Just go get some off-list lowers. They will all work/look fine and are all the same (except Vulcan and the carbon-fiber Bushmasters).

Remember, on an AR the upper does all the work. As long as the holes are drilled OK on the lower in relation to the magwell, and the threading for the receiver extension ("buffer tube") is drilled straight, all is well.

The lower receiver is your LEAST worry w/regards to overall AR quality. Much more important are the quality of the small parts, bolt/carrier assy, and upper receiver (I am hearing reports of varying quality in uppers). Also chrome-lined barrel w/milspec chamber is the key to a top-notch functioning rifle that can use a variety of ammo and not require a ton of cleaning....

bwiese,

Thanks, I am relaxed, now. I just will not be condescended to. Everything I have is pretty decent quality. The parts I have: Colt Upper, bolt carrier, and bolt. Bushmaster 20" National Match Heavy Barrel. These are quality parts and I just didn't want to put my Colt and Bushmaster parts together with a lower that wasn't going to work well together.

All I need is a OLL and a Mag Lock kit, and I'm ready to go. I'll be placing my order tomorrow and was hoping that I can get some opinions from the other members. Which I have and it helped me to make my decision.

[Jicko]

All I am asking if people could offer some advice on OLL brands. I would love to by a lower from Bushmaster but the only CA legal one they have, they only sell as a complete rifle.

www.ar15.com got a LOT more reviews in terms of qualities of products from various companies.

Check out this thread, then you can figure out who made what brand of receivers.... then you can most likely find some "off list" that would be the "same as/very similar to" the bushmaster you wanted!

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=30832

[bwiese]

Thanks, I am relaxed, now. I just will not be condescended to.

Hope it didn't sound like that, sorry if it did, just didn't want you to waste time worrying about brands or spending more money for a supposed 'prestige' brand.

Everything I have is pretty decent quality. The parts I have: Colt Upper, bolt carrier, and bolt. Bushmaster 20" National Match Heavy Barrel. These are quality parts and I just didn't want to put my Colt and Bushmaster parts together with a lower that wasn't going to work well together.

Good stuff! You won't have any debugging to do, unlike the gun-show-uppers folks often have to. Just populate your lowers with Bushy or Armalite or Stag/CMT parts or parts available from quality boutique AR vendors like BravoCompanyUSA, Denny's Guns/Global Tactical, MSTN, Ameetec, etc. I'd stay away from DPMS from what I've heard of their lower parts kits ("LPKs").

All I need is a OLL and a Mag Lock kit, and I'm ready to go. I'll be placing my order tomorrow and was hoping that I can get some opinions from the other members. Which I have and it helped me to make my decision.

Do remember that these other members' opinions are based solely on appearance of their OLL's finish. There is likely more variation in production finish (texture, coloration, etc.) across multiple production runs of lowers than across varying vendors!!! (Look how Colt's finish changed, reverted, changed again, etc. over the 1990s.)

Also, remember that any parts removed from your Colt lower (?can't remember if you originally had a Colt lower in another state, etc.??) are not milspec and have different pin sizes for hammer & trigger pins (0.170" vs 0.153" milspec) and consequently have different hammer, trigger and disconnectors as well. These extracted Colt fire control parts will not be usable in other brands of lowers.

Oh - two other things: I might be a bit careful about RRA lowers. Their uppers have a known tight fit on other brands of lowers, so I dunno how their lowers' tolerances are with other brands of uppers. Could be fine, could be an issue, who knows.

Also: there are small batches of Colt Match Elite HBAR (??) lowers available that are truly off-list and CA legal. If you already have Colt fire control parts, they'd work in this lower since it apparently also uses 0.170" pins & fire control parts.

[glockk9mm]

sorry to ask, but whats wrong with the carbon-bushmasters?

[C.G.]

sorry to ask, but whats wrong with the carbon-bushmasters?

They are unproven; there have been reports of hole elongation and threads stripping on carbon lowers. That is not as big of a deal now, since it seems that DOJ is not going to list, so you should be able to replace it if that happens. During the time that DOJ said they would list, once they would have listed and you would have a problem with the lower, you would not have been able to get another one.

Also, I wonder how they perform if a round went out of battery. Carbon shards in the skin would not be fun and if the lower could not contain the explosion it could be a lot worse than that.

[bwiese]

CG's right.

If you're buying your first OLLs, they should be forged milspec lowers. If you wanna experiment and play around w/carbon fiber lowers, fine, but don't bet on them for an extended time period - deal with those lowers as 'extras'.

The only California-legal Bushmaster lowers are the regular open-magwell carbon fiber one ("Carbon 15") and their closed-magwell one sold on the CA-approved rifle.

All other Bushy lowers seem to be marked "XM-15", which is listed/banned.