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  • Xanthippus
    CGN/CGSSA Contributor
    • Nov 2014
    • 555

    .223 combat loads

    I'm learning more and more about reloading (and my, it really is a world all on its own) and I've been trying to find a general...... "consensus" on bullet grains vs maximum combat effectiveness (that is, tissue damage including intermediate barriers, like clothing). I have not really been able to find any sort of consensus, just various opinions.... and this thread will likely be more of the same. However, if anyone knows of an "official guide", please point me that way - I haven't been able to find anything like it.

    Is a heavier bullet (like a 77gr, 75gr, etc) better and more effective at tissue damage, say, out to 100 yards, than a lighter grain (like 62gr or 55gr). Nevermind what the majority of our grunts use, the 62gr with steel core - is a heavier bullet's sacrifice in velocity worth its additional energy transfer?

    A lot of people chide the 5.56/.223 as being an inferior combat round. Sure, we (the USA and most NATO countries) have used it and we make it work, but it sucks at light barrier penetration and wound channels aren't particularly impressive in most cases (that's likely very much up for debate, depending on who you ask). However, it's not really the cartridge itself that's to blame (some have said), it's the bullet itself, more specifically the bullet grain.

    Is a heavier grain .223 bullet more effective at tissue damage AND intermediate barrier penetration, generally speaking?
    Last edited by Xanthippus; 04-17-2017, 10:18 AM.
    "Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." - Philippians 4:6-7

    "Liberty, as well as honor, man ought to preserve at the hazard of his life, for without it life is insupportable." - Miguel de Cervantes

    Let your desires and emotions be ruled by reason.
  • #2
    supertrooper
    Senior Member
    • Jan 2010
    • 622

    the lighter bullets are designed to tumble when they hit a person causing more damage. i think the military chose to compromise and went to slightly heavier bullets for better barrier penetration.
    A SWAT Monkey is a powerful psychological tool. Imagine you are a criminal hiding in a closet and you hear "Release the monkey!" You would shudder.

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    • #3
      razgriz183
      Member
      • Jan 2013
      • 121

      I reload for accuracy never cared for "tissue performance"

      If I wanted maximum damage I would reload with hunting rounds. Those out preform any military fmj 55g or 62g

      Much better to have accurate slower 55g vmax that rapidly expands
      Vs a moderately accurate high volecity 55g fmj that may have a through and through potential

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      • #4
        ProtectThe2nd
        In Memoriam
        • Mar 2016
        • 1225


        A hollow-point bullet is an expanding bullet that has a pit or hollowed out shape in its tip often intended to cause the bullet to expand upon entering a target in order to decrease penetration and disrupt more tissue as it travels through the target. It is also used for controlled penetration, where over-penetration could cause collateral damage (such as aboard an aircraft). In target shooting, they are used for greater accuracy and reduction of smoke, fouling, and lead vapor exposure, as hollow point bullets have an enclosed base while traditional bullets have an exposed lead base.

        Hollow points are designed to increase in diameter once within the target, thus maximizing tissue damage and blood loss or shock, and to remain inside the target, thereby transferring all of the kinetic energy to the target (whereas some fraction would remain in the bullet if it passed through instead). Both of these goals are meant to maximize stopping power. Jacketed hollow points (JHPs) or plated hollow points are covered in a coating of harder metal (usually a copper alloy or copper coated steel) to increase bullet strength and to prevent fouling the barrel with lead stripped from the bullet. The term hollow-cavity bullet is used to describe a hollow point where the hollow is unusually large, sometimes dominating the volume of the bullet, and causes extreme expansion or fragmentation on impact.[1]


        By legal agreement, military full metal jacket ammo is not designed to kill. It is only designed to injure with small wound channels!
        So with that out of the way...for self defense a soft point, hollow point in the appropriate weight for your barrel twist is the bullet of choice
        sigpic
        ESCAPE IF YOU CAN


        A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

        "The Second Amendment ex-tends, prima facie, to all instruments that constitute bearable arms, even those that were not in existence at the time of the founding." - The United States Supreme Court -

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        • #5
          LowThudd
          Veteran Member
          • Dec 2011
          • 3608

          Most .223 fragment(not tumble). A better choice would be a Solid copper HP like TSX. 70 grain shown below. Lot's of info on feral hog wound channel info at this link, for both the 62 grain and(mostly) the 70 grain TSX. 70 grain seems to be the clear winner out past 200 yards.

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          • #6
            kcheung2
            Veteran Member
            • Aug 2012
            • 4387

            The heavier projectiles are designed for a better ballistic coefficient, not barrier penetration. The reloaders using the heavier grains are choosing them to shooting farther with minimal drop and greater wind resistance. Their ability to go through clothing is not a consideration. In fact, shooting people in general is not a consideration.

            If you're talking about hunting, then different choices are made because penetration is more of a function of bullet construction. And in those cases, the conversation usually involves a larger caliber than .224 and a shorter range since few people can make humane shots beyond 300 yards, or even 200.
            ---------------------
            "There is no "best." If there was, everyone here would own that one, and no other." - DSB

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            • #7
              elSquid
              In Memoriam
              • Aug 2007
              • 11844

              5.56:

              3/1/17 Only after proper foundational and ongoing repetitive refresher training, cultivating warrior mind-set, and ensuring weapon system reliability do you need to worry about ammunition selection. Most folks would be far better off practicing with what they have, rather than worrying about what is "best". As long as you know your what your weapon and ammo can realistically accomplish, it is all just a matter of training and shot placement. I would much rather go into battle with a guy


              Military History:

              3/30/12 Until the late 1800's, military rifles fired large, heavy, relatively slow, soft lead bullets which deformed on impact and reliably incapacitated opponents. In the late 1890's to early 1900Â’s, new military rifles were developed which fired smaller diameter, lighter weight, non-deforming FMJ bullets at much higher velocities. The new FMJ bullets initially had round noses, but within 10 years, pointed (spitzer) noses were standard Although the velocities of these new FMJ military


              Root for above and other links:

              Ammunition, pistol,handgun,revolver,training,shooting,guns,bullets,ammunition


              -- Michael

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              • #8
                farmerjoe
                Senior Member
                • Nov 2008
                • 1014

                Originally posted by supertrooper
                the lighter bullets are designed to tumble when they hit a person causing more damage. i think the military chose to compromise and went to slightly heavier bullets for better barrier penetration.
                bullets with a short length tend to "yaw" faster when hitting something soft or semi-liquid.
                Last edited by farmerjoe; 04-17-2017, 12:40 PM.
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                • #9
                  Xanthippus
                  CGN/CGSSA Contributor
                  • Nov 2014
                  • 555

                  God forbid I'm ever in a position where lethal force must be used against another Human being, but should that time ever come, preparedness is a virtue. I want to know what the most effective bullet for the .223 is, GENERALLY SPEAKING. I specify that because, like all things, it depends on the application. Hunting? Law enforcement? Military use? Plinking? Barrier penetration (or lack thereof)?

                  And I should have specified, my question had nothing to do with projectile type, i.e. FMJ, HP, SP, etc. It was on bullet grain specifically.

                  Say there's a home invasion. I don't have access to a shotgun or handgun, only an .223 rifle. Let's just say..... 1/7 twist, 16" barrel. I think most people would say, any 55gr HP would suffice (or even FMJ, for less barrier penetration). HP, when passing through drywall, can tend to get clogged up, and rather than fragment, actually keep its velocity more than a standard FMJ (that will fragment and/or slow upon hitting an intermediate barrier).

                  But let's throw a monkey wrench into this scenario, one for which my original question was more aimed. Let's say these theoretical home-invaders are wearing class 3 body armor. Using the aforementioned rifle, which .223 bullet would best be used to neutralize that kind of armor? Is there a "best of both worlds" in the .223 bullet?
                  Last edited by Xanthippus; 04-17-2017, 11:40 AM.
                  "Do not be anxious about anything, but in every situation, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, present your requests to God. And the peace of God, which transcends all understanding, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus." - Philippians 4:6-7

                  "Liberty, as well as honor, man ought to preserve at the hazard of his life, for without it life is insupportable." - Miguel de Cervantes

                  Let your desires and emotions be ruled by reason.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    Rusty_Shackleferd
                    Senior Member
                    • Jun 2014
                    • 1107

                    Originally posted by Xanthippus
                    I'm learning more and more about reloading (and my, it really is a world all on its own) and I've been trying to find a general...... "consensus" on bullet grains vs maximum combat effectiveness (that is, tissue damage including intermediate barriers, like clothing). I have not really been able to find any sort of consensus, just various opinions.... and this thread will likely be more of the same. However, if anyone knows of an "official guide", please point me that way - I haven't been able to find anything like it.

                    Is a heavier bullet (like a 77gr, 75gr, etc) better and more effective at tissue damage, say, out to 100 yards, than a lighter grain (like 62gr or 55gr). Nevermind what the majority of our grunts use, the 62gr with steel core - is a heavier bullet's sacrifice in velocity worth its additional energy transfer?

                    A lot of people chide the 5.56/.223 as being an inferior combat round. Sure, we (the USA and most NATO countries) have used it and we make it work, but it sucks at light barrier penetration and wound channels aren't particularly impressive in most cases (that's likely very much up for debate, depending on who you ask). However, it's not really the cartridge itself that's to blame (some have said), it's the bullet itself, more specifically the bullet grain.

                    Is a heavier grain .223 bullet more effective at tissue damage AND intermediate barrier penetration, generally speaking?
                    I can't imagine you doing well in a court of law if it was determined that you used reloads in a defense situation. However, I do not have a test case to support my conjecture.

                    With that being said, I crumple pigs with 70g TSX and H4895

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      W.R.Buchanan
                      Veteran Member
                      • Jan 2008
                      • 3350

                      Originally posted by Xanthippus
                      God forbid I'm ever in a position where lethal force must be used against another Human being, but should that time ever come, preparedness is a virtue.

                      But let's throw a monkey wrench into this scenario, one for which my original question was more aimed. Let's say these theoretical home-invaders are wearing class 3 body armor. Using the aforementioned rifle, which .223 bullet would best be used to neutralize that kind of armor? Is there a "best of both worlds" in the .223 bullet?
                      I'd say if you were being invaded by men with body armor that you should probably run! If they are wearing body armor chances are they are more proficient than you are, and going into direct conflict with them is just a fast way to get you killed.

                      I would also say that whomever you pissed off that sent those Ex Military Mercenary types to invade your home was probably pretty serious about you not living. If they are Cops and they are knocking down the door because they think you are a Drug Dealer or other High Profile Criminal requiring SWAT Intervention, then laying on the floor face down with your arms outstretched "might" keep you alive.

                      An alternate escape plan may be a more prudent path than worrying about which bullet will cause the most damage.

                      That said, if you see they are wearing body armor, then any bullet placed between the eyes will do the job, and you would only shoot them in the face because you noticed they have body armor on. That's called a "Designated Head Shot" and you've got less than 2 seconds to make that happen.

                      The one factor here that does come to mind is "your" ability to actually hit a moving man with your gun of choice. This is not easy, and once again any hit with any bullet will increase your odds of survival, or maybe not, depending on his back up?

                      Getting shot by a rifle is a lot worse than getting shot by a pistol. (so I'm told!) you may live thru being shot with a pistol round, but it is a very low percentage that you will make it thru the rifle shot,,, with any bullet.

                      Also note: that on the .223 round, unless it is a FMJ style bullet it is probably a Varmint Bullet which is designed to essentially blow up when it hits meat. There is not going to be much of a wound channel. There will be more of a Crater. Prairie Dogs and Ground Squirrels don't offer much resistance and as such those bullets are designed to expand so rapidly that they virtually blow up.

                      Heavier bullets will penetrate farther but unless they are solid nosed or some kind of controlled expansion bullet they will still expand rapidly and not penetrate very deep.

                      If I was you I would concentrate on Training and reload using the cheapest 55 or 62 gr bullets I could find, (Mid-South) so that I could shoot a lot and get good. Maybe a trip to Front Sight for a Practical Rifle Class would be a good investment.

                      One well placed shot will solve the problem a lot quicker than a flurry of super-duper bullets that never hit the mark.

                      Randy
                      Rule #1 Liberals screw up everything they touch.
                      Rule #2 Whatever they accuse you of, they are already doing.
                      Rule #3 Liberals lie about anything no matter how insignificant.
                      Rule #4 If all else fails, they call you a Racist!

                      It's not how well you do what you know how to do,,, It is how well you do what you don't know how to do.
                      www.buchananprecisionmachine.com

                      Comment

                      • #12
                        farmerjoe
                        Senior Member
                        • Nov 2008
                        • 1014

                        Originally posted by W.R.Buchanan
                        I'd say if you were being invaded by men with body armor that you should probably run! If they are wearing body armor chances are they are more proficient than you are, and going into direct conflict with them is just a fast way to get you killed.

                        I would also say that whomever you pissed off that sent those Ex Military Mercenary types to invade your home was probably pretty serious about you not living. If they are Cops and they are knocking down the door because they think you are a Drug Dealer or other High Profile Criminal requiring SWAT Intervention, then laying on the floor face down with your arms outstretched "might" keep you alive.

                        An alternate escape plan may be a more prudent path than worrying about which bullet will cause the most damage.

                        That said, if you see they are wearing body armor, then any bullet placed between the eyes will do the job, and you would only shoot them in the face because you noticed they have body armor on. That's called a "Designated Head Shot" and you've got less than 2 seconds to make that happen.

                        The one factor here that does come to mind is "your" ability to actually hit a moving man with your gun of choice. This is not easy, and once again any hit with any bullet will increase your odds of survival, or maybe not, depending on his back up?

                        Getting shot by a rifle is a lot worse than getting shot by a pistol. (so I'm told!) you may live thru being shot with a pistol round, but it is a very low percentage that you will make it thru the rifle shot,,, with any bullet.

                        Also note: that on the .223 round, unless it is a FMJ style bullet it is probably a Varmint Bullet which is designed to essentially blow up when it hits meat. There is not going to be much of a wound channel. There will be more of a Crater. Prairie Dogs and Ground Squirrels don't offer much resistance and as such those bullets are designed to expand so rapidly that they virtually blow up.

                        Heavier bullets will penetrate farther but unless they are solid nosed or some kind of controlled expansion bullet they will still expand rapidly and not penetrate very deep.

                        If I was you I would concentrate on Training and reload using the cheapest 55 or 62 gr bullets I could find, (Mid-South) so that I could shoot a lot and get good. Maybe a trip to Front Sight for a Practical Rifle Class would be a good investment.

                        One well placed shot will solve the problem a lot quicker than a flurry of super-duper bullets that never hit the mark.

                        Randy
                        This

                        Range time, as much as you can afford. Clearing jams/FTF and the like. In the dark. While distracted. Know your weapon, it's limitations and practice to overcome them. Someone with a 10/22 and knows his **** is a lot better prepared than someone with all the bells & whistles and doesn't know what to do with them.
                        Don't know your California Legislators Number?

                        http://findyourrep.legislature.ca.gov

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                        • #13
                          kcheung2
                          Veteran Member
                          • Aug 2012
                          • 4387

                          Originally posted by Xanthippus
                          God forbid I'm ever in a position where lethal force must be used against another Human being, but should that time ever come, preparedness is a virtue. I want to know what the most effective bullet for the .223 is, GENERALLY SPEAKING. I specify that because, like all things, it depends on the application. Hunting? Law enforcement? Military use? Plinking? Barrier penetration (or lack thereof)?

                          And I should have specified, my question had nothing to do with projectile type, i.e. FMJ, HP, SP, etc. It was on bullet grain specifically.

                          Say there's a home invasion. I don't have access to a shotgun or handgun, only an .223 rifle. Let's just say..... 1/7 twist, 16" barrel. I think most people would say, any 55gr HP would suffice (or even FMJ, for less barrier penetration). HP, when passing through drywall, can tend to get clogged up, and rather than fragment, actually keep its velocity more than a standard FMJ (that will fragment and/or slow upon hitting an intermediate barrier).

                          But let's throw a monkey wrench into this scenario, one for which my original question was more aimed. Let's say these theoretical home-invaders are wearing class 3 body armor. Using the aforementioned rifle, which .223 bullet would best be used to neutralize that kind of armor? Is there a "best of both worlds" in the .223 bullet?
                          The problem is that specific uses has very much to do with bullet type/construction and less to do with bullet weight. To use a car analogy, you're asking what kind of car performs better, a 2 door or a 4 door, while ignoring the engine when in fact that's the main determinant.
                          ---------------------
                          "There is no "best." If there was, everyone here would own that one, and no other." - DSB

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                          • #14
                            dennis1979gm
                            Senior Member
                            • Mar 2009
                            • 509

                            75gr Amax bullets are devastating on game animals. If your looking for tissue damage and not barrier penetration buy a 100 box and try them. They fly good at long range as well. Ive shot them out to 450 and they do great out to that distance and fold coyote nicely
                            ]If its not a COLT its a COPY!

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                            • #15
                              bootstrap
                              Senior Member
                              • Jul 2015
                              • 1239

                              Even with armor, I can't imagine the spalling from a 7.62x39 8m3 projectile being pleasant to one's throat after taking a high chest/clavicle shot.

                              Not exactly .223, but since you're talking barrier and armor penetration figured I'd throw that out there.

                              I don't underestimate a 55gr m193's ability either, especially out of a 20" barrel.
                              Last edited by bootstrap; 04-17-2017, 2:08 PM.

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