Are my AR's illegal in CA with mag-well grips? Help!!

[MostlyMosin]

On my black rifles, I can't seem to be able to distinguish between whether "forward grip" means ONLY a forward PISTOL GRIP, or even where "forward" begins... the possibility that my FAB Defense M.W.G. mag-well grips are going to be outlawed... and so...I need to ask people who actually might know if these are or ARE NOT an "evil feature". Can I keep my mag well grip? Yes? No?? Help!!

[Cokebottle]

The grips are not "outlawed", but personally, I would not use one on a featureless build. This has nothing to do with the new laws.

Remember... the new laws did not change the list of evil features or the basic definition of an AW.
The only difference is what is now defined as a "fixed" magazine.

If it is illegal today, and the gun does not have a bullet button, it was most likely illegal a year ago.

[MostlyMosin]

I appreciate the response -but I'm not so sure if that answered much. I still have the old bullet buttons installed, but I want to remove those now that I've added Kydex grip fins to my rifles with fixed stocks, and changed out the birdcage flash suppressors to muzzle-brake compensators. What I was asking was if the mag well grips are considered "forward grips", or not. Featureless- or not... I want to keep the mag well grips unless it's not legal for me to do so.

[Cokebottle]

personally, I would not use one on a featureless build. This has nothing to do with the new laws.

^^^^^

I am not comfortable that the 58 DA's in California would not consider it a forward vertical grip.

You have removed your features and now have a featureless build, therefore ^^^^^^^

The law is intentionally vague and nobody can provide a legal answer to your question until there is a test case to establish case law.

[MostlyMosin]

I'm not comfortable either. Hence my post. The State could certainly be more concise on what constitutes a forward vertical grip, and if a grip is only considered to be a forward grip when it is in fact a pistol grip, with the ability to wrap your thumb behind it. - but I guess it's too much to ask for the State to actually make an effort to educate the public on the laws. Their only goal in life is to enforce and prosecute once they've confused and duped the poor citizens into infractions who are only trying to do the right thing to stay within the law. It's ridiculous.

[Cokebottle]

Yup... Fortunately (or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it) there have not been many arrests that have gone to trial that would help to more clearly define what are and are not evil features. It's been 10 years since the OLL issue allowed for the rebirth of a "black rifle" market in CA, and rwally only 6 years since it has been mainstreamed with chains like Turners offering them for sale.

But even the bullet button.. we had a memo of opinion 6 or 7 years ago from a DOJ employee, but nothing truly solid until 2014 when the first BB'd rifle was successfully run through the new DROS process. At that point, we had hard evidence that the DOJ was fully aware of the features and configuration of the rifle and allowed the buyer to take possession.

[jcwatchdog]

On my black rifles, I can't seem to be able to distinguish between whether "forward grip" means ONLY a forward PISTOL GRIP, or even where "forward" begins... the possibility that my FAB Defense M.W.G. mag-well grips are going to be outlawed... and so...I need to ask people who actually might know if these are or ARE NOT an "evil feature". Can I keep my mag well grip? Yes? No?? Help!!

Can you actually "grip" the magwell fab defense "grip"? Can you do anything differently with the magwell grip than you couldn't otherwise do with it not being there? In other words, can't you still grip the magwell exactly like you would even with the fab defense grip not being there? If it's not adding anything different, then really it's not doing much of anything other than adding a flare to the magwell and some finger groves that don't accomplish anything. It should be fine to use.

[MostlyMosin]

I checked with the DOJ website. and the specifics state "forward pistol grip" (Pistol grip- where you can wrap your thumb around it like a pistol). As far as I can tell, the mag-well style grips are NOT a pistol grip.

Generic Characteristics Defining Assault Weapons:
12276.1 (a) Notwithstanding Penal Code section 12276, “assault weapon” shall also mean the following:
Rifles
(1) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has the capacity to accept a detachable magazine and any one of
the following:
(A) A pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon.
(B) A thumbhole stock.
(C) A folding or telescoping stock.
(D) A grenade launcher or flare launcher.
(E) A flash suppressor.
(F) A forward pistol grip.
(2) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10
rounds.
(3) A semiautomatic, centerfire rifle that has an overall length of less than 30 inches.

[MostlyMosin]

Yep- that's the way I read it too. It should be fine. It's just a grip, not a "pistol grip"...

thanks.

Can you actually "grip" the magwell fab defense "grip"? Can you do anything differently with the magwell grip than you couldn't otherwise do with it not being there? In other words, can't you still grip the magwell exactly like you would even with the fab defense grip not being there? If it's not adding anything different, then really it's not doing much of anything other than adding a flare to the magwell and some finger groves that don't accomplish anything. It should be fine to use.

[Chaos47]

In the FSOR somewhere its mentions gripping the magazine well wouldn't be considered "A forward pistol grip". But this was before such magazine well grip products existed...

[Cokebottle]

Bingo.
It boils down to what you are personally willing to risk, depending largely upon how LE in your area view firearms and their attitudes toward AW laws.

There is a reason there have not been a lot of arrests for legally (or marginally) configured guns.

[Christopher761]

(c) “Forward pistol grip” means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp forward of the trigger.
(d) “Pistol grip that protrudes conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon” means a grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.
(e) “Thumbhole stock” means a stock with a hole that allows the thumb of the trigger hand to penetrate into or through the stock while firing.

Based upon the above, it is forward of the action. But it does not allow for a "pistol style grasp".

[Spaceghost]

Please listen to Cokebottle, he is exactly right. I don't see a location listed for you, so we can't give you more specific information.

[HK Dave]

I wouldn't personally be concerned with a magwell grip. For petes sake it's just a piece of rubber covering the mag well. But that's me. Until there is legal clarification, like others have said, it's up to you as to how much risk you'd take.

[Jimi Jah]

We do need test cases here. Otherwise how do you ever challenge a court decision?