NEW Featureless Concept!!!

[ARTACS FIREARMS]

pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing.

Also, from testimony of DOJ agent Frank Navarro in the People vs. Haack, and official DOJ statements below from the Senate Bill 23 Final Statement of Reason (FSOR) (https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/a.../regs/fsor.pdf).
(Note-If anyone has a question regarding a specific prohibited feature, or product legality, this document usually has official answers to those specific or very similar questions.)

"......If the legislature had intended to identify a "pistol grip that protrudes . . ." on the basis of a fixed length or angle of the grip, it would have done so in the law." SB23 FSOR B5.41

"The position where the web of the hand can be positioned while grasping a particular firearm is not affected by the size of the hand." SB23 FSOR C3.14

"The "while firing" reinforces the fact that the definition refers to placement of the trigger hand while firing." SB23 FSOR C3.49

"....although it could be physically possible for some non-pistol grip rifles to be fired with the web of the hand positioned below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger, the rifle would have to be held in an extremely abnormal manner. Such a grasp could not plausibly be considered a "pistol style grasp" by a reasonable person." SB23 FSOR C3.01

".....firearm is capable of being grasped in the specified manner as opposed to how any individual chooses to grasp the firearm." SB23 FSOR A5.43


Here is the concept for now (until they come after all featureless and semi-auto rifles):

Our firearms have a mechanical grip safety that prohibits the firearm from firing unless it is depressed by the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger). This safety is completely above the top of the exposed portion of the trigger and cannot be activated in a "pistol style grasp" without the "web of the hand above the top of the exposed portion of the trigger". Therefor the grip does not qualify as a prohibited feature.

Please let us know what you think. Good bad or otherwise.

[Yerman]

Interesting. What do the attorney's and the DOJ consultant say?

What about the flash hider on the barrel?

Or what if I lifted my thumb up and pushed the safety?

[L84CABO]

Well that's certainly interesting. How does this actually work? Is it easy to shoot?

And has DOJ actually seen this and rendered an opinion on it? Interpreting testimony doesn't mean this will actually fly.

[munkeeboi]

what if you depress the button with the web of your off hand (the way a lefty would hold a pistol)? wouldn't you now be able to fire with the web of the trigger hand below the "danger zone". You won't be able to fire well, but that isn't a requirement

Is this supposed to this work on any existing AR15?

[C.W.M.V.]

Interesting, but it still extends conspicuously below the weapon don't you think?

[munkeeboi]

Interesting, but it still extends conspicuously below the weapon don't you think?

"protruding conspicuously below" has nothing to do whether CA deems something a pistol grip or not.

It's part of the name of the item that they later define as any "grip that allows for a pistol style grasp in which the web of the trigger hand (between the thumb and index finger) can be placed below the top of the exposed portion of the trigger while firing"

[Junkie]

Interesting.

For people asking what DOJ says, they won't give opinions on whether something is assaulty or not.

[Whiterabbit]

Wow. If that passes legal muster you deserve a medal.

IF POSSIBLE, please design one that doesn't look aftermarket goofy. If not A1-style, then A2 style is OK. Would make a fine companion to the one you have there. model 1 - tactical, model 2 - traditional.

Oh, and I am also assuming we can use any old lower. Possibly by having to drill an additional hole somewhere down there so the grip has better access to the FCG. That's OK. No good if I have to buy your own lower receiver to make it work.

[Yerman]

Ya...after further thought...I really don't see how this could get by.

If I lift my thumb up and depress the safety, I can fire the weapon with the web of my hand under the trigger guard.

Does it look silly? Yes. Is it practical? No. Does it allow me to fire the weapon with the web of my hand below the trigger? Yes.

[God Bless America]

Clever. Very smart.

[Oceanbob]

Interesting but I suspect law enforcement will confiscate and arrest and let the local DA decide.

It goes to trail expect a BIG Legal Bill. If you win, then it becomes Case Law.

If you lose, then you become a prohibited person, no gun and a BIG legal Bill.



Do you feel Lucky Punk.......do ya. . .?

[CouchOperator]

So.... Everyones lowers would need to be milled.

[elSquid]

Please let us know what you think. Good bad or otherwise.

It's a neat idea!

I can pretty much guarantee that a few of the early adopters are going to get arrested and it will have to be thrashed out in the courts. My guess is that a jury will be pragmatic about it and consider it a pistol grip.

-- Michael

[Neil McCauley]

Yeah, we really need a test case on this one. Any volunteers?

[ARTACS FIREARMS]

Ya...after further thought...I really don't see how this could get by.

If I lift my thumb up and depress the safety, I can fire the weapon with the web of my hand under the trigger guard.

Does it look silly? Yes. Is it practical? No. Does it allow me to fire the weapon with the web of my hand below the trigger? Yes.

Good points but the style of grasp you are describing is the same as the grasp used on a Monsterman grip or grip wrapped firearm. The DOJ testimony in People vs. Haack provided case law confirming that this type of grasp would not be a pistol style grasp. This is the reason we are able to use the excellent Hammerhead grip from Exile Machine.