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**bigbully** · 07-31-2016, 10:51 AM

This is not a good rule of thumb. First of all using the words horizontal and vertical are subjective to the angle you are looking at the barrel. You apparently mean when you look down the barrel from shooter perspective but you should specify. Secondly, linear compensators like the Hera Arms LC series have integral chambers that don't fit your rules. There are also flash suppressors that don't have holes or slots like the Noveske KX3 and KX5. The only way to know for sure is to go by how each device is classified by the BATF FTB. Most manufacturers will specify how their muzzle device is classified. Without classification then you are taking a risk no matter how educated your guess is.

**Ceeceerider71** · 07-31-2016, 11:01 AM

Well genius.... The title says " Muzzle Break vs Flash Suppressor " it doesn't say anything about "compensators".... And not every devise on the market has been evaluated by the BATF-FTB.... And I also think "horizontal TO the barrel" and "Vertical To the barrel" are pretty self expanitory no mater which way you turn the barrel horizontal and vertical TO THE BARREL will always be the same. And as I said its just my observation

**bigbully** · 07-31-2016, 11:19 AM

Originally posted by Ceeceerider71

Well genius.... The title says " Muzzle Break vs Flash Suppressor " it doesn't say anything about "compensators".... And not every devise on the market has been evaluated by the BATF-FTB.... And I also think "horizontal TO the barrel" and "Vertical To the barrel" are pretty self expanitory no mater which way you turn the barrel horizontal and vertical TO THE BARREL will always be the same. And as I said its just my observation

Wow! Seriously? You ask for comments and this is your reply to the first one. Well, OK "genius". I know that not all devices are not classified. That's why I mentioned that it was a risk if not. Granted that a brake is not always a compensator and a compensator is not always a brake but the fact is that many use the term interchangeably and not every device is going to fall in line with your observation.

Also, if you lay the gun on its side then what you call the "vertical" ports are no longer vertical. They are horizontal to the barrel. Vertical to the TOP of the barrel, yes, but you didn't specify that. I was only suggesting that if one person finds it somewhat confusing than others might as well too.

**Hairball** · 07-31-2016, 11:39 AM

First, I go with how the manufacturer identifies the device. Second, I look at the diameter of the exit hole. If it is just large enough for the round to exit, I lean on the side of brake, if it is noticeably larger, I learn towards flash suppressor. JMHO. In the end it may not matter as CA will define it however they want if they intend to charge you with something.

**rivraton** · 07-31-2016, 11:42 AM

Originally posted by Ceeceerider71

Let me preface this by saying I am not a lawyer.... And this is not intended to be leagal advise and should not be considered as such

So it has been my observation that the big difference between the two seem to be shape, size, and direction of slots and holes.

After looking at tons of websites, adds, and talk forums I have come up with this conclusion.....

Flash Suppressors have slots or tines that run horizontal to the barrel.

Muzzle brakes have round holes in some configuration with or with out slots vertical to the barrel. Some also have irregular cut outs ( triangle, squiggly lines, and/or obround) but it seems that these shapes are almost always longer vertically and shorter horizontal to the barrel.....

So in my conclusion.... Horizontal to the barrel ---- = a featured rifle
Vertical to the barrel llll = featureless

Again I'm not a lawyer but I feel pretty safe about having my S-Type Muzzle Brake on my Featureless AR....

Comments???

Not necessarily:
Flash Hider:

Muzzle brake:

Attached Files

**Ceeceerider71** · 07-31-2016, 11:44 AM

BigBully.... "Okay genius". Was meant as haha smiley face... Not in a mean way... This is why I hate texting the wife too, no emotions behind the words to let you know their intentions

And thank you Hairball I forgot to mention the whole exit hole size thing

**sonofeugene** · 07-31-2016, 12:39 PM

I have a DD "Muzzle Climb Mitigator Gen II " on my AR. It's sold, marketed/advertised as something to control muzzle climb with zero mention of any anti flash capability.

Daniel Defense AR15 & AR10 Muzzle Devices | Daniel Defense

https://danieldefense.com/components-parts/muzzle-devices/daniel-defense-muzzle-climb-mitigator-gen-ii.html

Shop a full selection of Daniel Defense muzzle devices, including flash hiders, muzzle brakes and WAVE suppressor adapters for AR15 & AR10 rifles.

**Chaos47** · 07-31-2016, 2:19 PM

Originally posted by Ceeceerider71

Comments???

https://sites.google.com/site/featurelessrifleguide/legal-background-for-determining-muzzle-devices

**jcwatchdog** · 07-31-2016, 2:27 PM

Originally posted by sonofeugene

I have a DD "Muzzle Climb Mitigator Gen II " on my AR. It's sold, marketed/advertised as something to control muzzle climb with zero mention of any anti flash capability.

https://danieldefense.com/components...or-gen-ii.html

I don't trust anything with so many twists and turns

If you just stick to the basics, you will be fine. The fancier you get, the more potential issue. I bought one that was advertised by the seller as a muzzle brake and compensator. When I received it, on the back it listed "reduced muzzle flash".
I sent it back and bought these.

**hatidua** · 07-31-2016, 2:30 PM

Originally posted by Ceeceerider71

Comments???

parallel

perpendicular

**Ceeceerider71** · 07-31-2016, 2:44 PM

Man I tried searching a 100 times to try and find a listing for any muzzle brake that is BATF-FTB approved and found absolutely nada.... Would be nice if the companies making these, that went thru the trouble of having them checked would list that they're approved on their sales pages.... But I'm sure tons of them were never checked or approved. I'm just gonna roll with what I got. I took pictures of the site I bought them on and of the manufacturer's website where they are listed as "Muzzle Brakes" with No mention of flash suppression. Hopefully this will suffice

**2Aon2wheels** · 07-31-2016, 2:51 PM

You'll never find something from BATFE-FTB that says "This is not a flush suprressor". Furthermore, even if they did, CA DOJ makes their own rules. Follow the advice on the gdoc and/or your lawyer. Key thing is:

Bullet exit hole = same diameter as bullet
No mention of "Flash suppressing capabilities" in any of manufacturer marketing materials. And no actual reduction in flash as a result of the design.

Good luck. If you're not comfortable, go with a muzzle nut.

**Chaos47** · 07-31-2016, 3:03 PM

ATF doesn't classify muzzle devices anymore since the end of the Fed AWB. And like 2Aon2wheels said its what CA DOJ says not the ATF (unless they seek their council, step 3).

Example.. PWS FSC which has an ATF letter saying its not a flash hider. But using the "Hunt v Lockyer" declaration by DOJ Special Agent Ignatius (Iggy) Chinn it would probably be ruled a Flash Suppressor in Ca.

I posted a link to what we know about classifying devices. There is no need to make up your own classification method...

**bigbully** · 07-31-2016, 3:04 PM

Originally posted by Ceeceerider71

BigBully.... "Okay genius". Was meant as haha smiley face... Not in a mean way... This is why I hate texting the wife too, no emotions behind the words to let you know their intentions

And thank you Hairball I forgot to mention the whole exit hole size thing

Thank you for saying so. I also did not mean to escalate it further if that happened. I also have the texting issue with my wife

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