Is a Kriss Vector featureless?

[Mutenri]

From another discussion here on the Kriss Vector, someone mentioned that the Kriss Vector grip doesn't really match the California definition of a pistol grip, since it doesn't protrude under the receiver. The Browning 1919 was argued here to not have a pistol grip because of this argument.

Does this hold water? Any legal eagles could weigh in on this?

[Mutenri]

You can't have a thumb hole stock either from what I understand. If you do, then it requires a BB.

Doesn't look like the thumb goes through the stock to me.

[meno377]

I am sorry. I was thinking beretta CX4. LOL. The kriss is because you have a separate magazine well and you have a pistol grip. If you filled in the section so you couldn't get your thumb around the grip then perhaps you could make it featureless. In addition you also have a second grip on the rail for your other hand which would also be a no no .

[Cokebottle]

That is most definitely a pistol grip, AND a vertical forward grip.
The buttstock may or may not qualify as "telescoping"... if no tools are needed to adjust the LOP, then yes, that's 3 evil features.
Yes, a bullet button would be required.

Also appears that the buttstock folds. If so, it doesn't matter how many evil features it does or does not have... if the OAL is less than 30" with the stock folded, it's an AW in any configuration.
Remember, California and the Feds have two different definitions of OAL. Feds require a rifle to be minimum 26" OAL with the folding/telescoping buttstock in it's EXTENDED position. As long as it has a 16" barrel, it can fold up to 16" and not fall under NFA's SBR laws.
California, minimum OAL for a semiautomatic, centerfire rifle is 30" with the buttstock in it's SHORTEST configuration.
A 14.5" barrel with a 2" pinned flash hider and basic telescoping buttstock is right about 10.1" when collapsed. Anything shorter becomes an AW, and if it is under 26" when in the most compact configuration, becomes an SBR in California.


Rule of thumb on the pistol grip issue?
Can you wrap your hand around the grip in such a way that the web of your thumb is below the trigger?


The 1919 is a WHOLE different story.

It is not a rifle. It was manufactured with spade grips and was a tripod-mounted "crew serviced weapon" and thus, exempt from California AW laws.

Adding the pistol grip does not make it a "pistol" because a pistol is designed to be fired with one hand. Good luck with that.
It has no shoulder stock, so it is still not a rifle.
It's not a shotgun.
Without a VFG, it is not an AOW.

It is simply a Title-1 "Other" similar to a pistol-grip only shotgun (which is still a shotgun and if semi-automatic, DOES fall under AW laws).

Must be 21 to transfer.

[NoHeavyHitter]

Doesn't look like the thumb goes through the stock to me.

I concur. A thumbhole stock would require the bottom of the grip to have a rearward connection to the buttstock.

[meno377]

Doesn't look like the thumb goes through the stock to me.

You're right. My mistake mentioning it because for whatever reason, I was thinking Beretta CX4.

[Mutenri]

That is most definitely a pistol grip, AND a vertical forward grip.
The buttstock may or may not qualify as "telescoping"... if no tools are needed to adjust the LOP, then yes, that's 3 evil features.

Yes, a bullet button would be required.

The VFG is aftermarket, and the stock can be pinned. I'm only questioning whether the grip which does not "protrude conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" counts as a pistol grip.

EDIT: original post editted

Also appears that the buttstock folds. If so, it doesn't matter how many evil features it does or does not have... if the OAL is less than 30" with the stock folded, it's an AW in any configuration.
Remember, California and the Feds have two different definitions of OAL. Feds require a rifle to be minimum 26" OAL with the folding/telescoping buttstock in it's EXTENDED position. As long as it has a 16" barrel, it can fold up to 16" and not fall under NFA's SBR laws.
California, minimum OAL for a semiautomatic, centerfire rifle is 30" with the buttstock in it's SHORTEST configuration.
A 14.5" barrel with a 2" pinned flash hider and basic telescoping buttstock is right about 10.1" when collapsed. Anything shorter becomes an AW, and if it is under 26" when in the most compact configuration, becomes an SBR in California.

I am well aware. In this scenario, the barrel is the 16" version, transferred as a rifle, and the stock would be pinned, and one'd not attach a VFG or grenade launcher. I have read the flowchart.

The 1919 is a WHOLE different story.

It is not a rifle. It was manufactured with spade grips and was a tripod-mounted "crew serviced weapon" and thus, exempt from California AW laws.

The A6 version is stocked and has the same type of spade grip. It is discussed in this thread and some asserted that it's featureless.

Adding the pistol grip does not make it a "pistol" because a pistol is designed to be fired with one hand. Good luck with that.
It has no shoulder stock, so it is still not a rifle.
It's not a shotgun.
Without a VFG, it is not an AOW.

It is simply a Title-1 "Other" similar to a pistol-grip only shotgun (which is still a shotgun and if semi-automatic, DOES fall under AW laws).

Must be 21 to transfer.

Not talking about the "pistol" version of the Kriss Vector. Just the 16" barrel/barrel shrouded rifle version.

[Cokebottle]

I am sorry. I was thinking beretta CX4. LOL. The kriss is because you have a separate magazine well and you have a pistol grip. If you filled in the section so you couldn't get your thumb around the grip then perhaps you could make it featureless. In addition you also have a second grip on the rail for your other hand which would also be a no no .

Separate magwell is only a qualifying "evil feature" for pistol AW.
With the buttstock and 16" barrel, this would be a rifle.

[Cokebottle]

The VFG is aftermarket, and the stock can be pinned. I'm only questioning whether the grip which does not "protrude conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" counts as a pistol grip.

It does "protrude conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" and counts as a pistolgrip.


With the buttstock being pinned, you could attach a "fin" to the back of the grip that prevents (anyone with any size hand) from wrapping the thumb across behind the grip.

The problem is, all of this work needs to be done before it is imported to California, and you can't buy it out of state and do the work yourself.

[Cokebottle]

Not talking about the "pistol" version of the Kriss Vector. Just the 16" barrel/barrel shrouded rifle version.

I was still referring to the 1919 there.

[meno377]

It does "protrude conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" and counts as a pistolgrip.


With the buttstock being pinned, you could attach a "fin" to the back of the grip that prevents (anyone with any size hand) from wrapping the thumb across behind the grip.

The problem is, all of this work needs to be done before it is imported to California, and you can't buy it out of state and do the work yourself.

Including with a Bullet Button? What if you purchased it with a BB and then proceeded to convert it featureless so you could take the BB off?

[Cokebottle]

Including with a Bullet Button? What if you purchased it with a BB and then proceeded to convert it featureless so you could take the BB off?

In factory configuration with the folding buttstock reducing the length to under 30", it can not be brought into California, even with a BB.

The BB forgives the basic "evil features" but does not exempt the minimum OAL. It can't come in as a folder period.

[Mutenri]

It does "protrude conspicuously beneath the action of the weapon" and counts as a pistolgrip.

Here's a picture of the Kriss Vector action. the yellow and blue parts being the action itself. Based on my limited understanding, the grip doesn't seem to be protruding below it.

[GhostEmpire]

I feel like California is the Special Ed of gun laws.

[saki302]

IMO the pistol grip DOES NOT stick out below the action of the weapon- even less so than the 1919. The butt of the grip does stick slightly under the
1919 receiver, whereas on the kriss, the butt of the grip is actually above the lower most part of the action. The 1919 does have a weird trigger you pull UP on, but that's a red herring- the thing in question is if the grip sticks out under the action itself.

But- is it worth going to court over it? IMO, no.

The CA versions are coming in with no VFG, and the folding stock is pinned open, IT's not collapsible, you need an allen wrench to adjust the length of pull.

-Dave