Semi Auto 308

[cal3gunner]

So I have wanted a fun semi auto magazine fed 308 for awhile. Does anyone have any suggestions based on their experiences with their rifles? I probably won't shoot the rifle very much but it would be nice to have around. I am very familiar with AR15s and like that platform but am willing to get something different if the price is right.

I want something with about a 18-20 inch barrel because I don't want to lose too much velocity going to a 16 inch.

I already have a Remington 700 in 308, so the accuracy out of the semi only has to be about 2 MOA but it would be great if it was about 1 MOA.

I don't want this to be a heavy bench rest rifle. It has to easy to handle and operate. Its only going to be shot off hand at targets out to 100 yards and prone for anything past that.

I'm not going to use this for competition or matches probably so I don't want to have to customize it too much. I just want something ready to go have fun with blowing up milk jugs and fruit and if the SHTF I have a good rifle with more power than the 5.56.

I'm all for building up a AR platform in 308, I just can't justify spending a couple grand on a toy that I'll rarely use right now.

So who has a Saiga 308, M1A?, M14, AR10, Remington R-25, Fal or any other 308 that they want to talk about?
What kind of accuracy are you getting with surplus and match ammo?
What is the ball park price for the rifle and a handful of mags?

Thanks for the help. I'm open to any ideas for a good all around rifle.

[FMJBT]

PTR-91 FTW. Accurate, reliable, and mags are dirt cheap. It will make your left arm stronger too .

[Vinz]

I love my M1A. Fun rifle.


vinz

[IH8CALAWS]

FAL or an M1A.

[joe55]

I love my M1A. Fun rifle.


vinz

+1.......

[Frijolito1988]

Cetme

Heres mine

[fal_762x51]

The FN-FAL.

[rg_1111@yahoo.com]

FAL for price. AR-10 For Accuracy.

[wildcard313]

2 MOA may be hard to reach with any mag fed semi auto that isnt heavily accurized (is that even a word?). I dont have first hand expierence with anything beside a FAL, but from what Ive heard and read you can get a very accurate M1A (for alot of money and constant tuning) or AR 10 (maybe a bit heavy, not very many peoples first pick for a SHTF rifle as DI ARs need more maintenence than say a FAL, also expensive depending on the quality and add-ons).


FAL or PTR91, out of the box, will be cheapest (ive seen decent lightly used FALs go for the $800 range, or cheaper if you want to gamble a bit on the maker/parts), though you will probably not get 1 MOA, especially not with surpluss ammo.

[cal3gunner]

Ferny, whats the specs on that rifle?

What kind of groups does it shoot if you've done it?


everyone else, what kind of accuracy/groups do Fals and M1As shoot out of the box? My definition of accuracy might be different than yours so can we talk groups instead of just saying accurate?

Thanks

[Vinz]

My M1A,
Out of the box 1 1/4" MOA with decent Miwall ammo. Does 3/4" with premium ammo.
I have around 1500 rounds out of it and it still does well.
vinz

[Kiba]

My DSA STG-58 FAL is about a 2.5 MOA rifle with Aussie surplus... I've never fed it anything better. Good rifle to shoot, reliable, not too heavy... but the trigger leaves a lot to be desired and the factory iron sights are so-so. I had a red-dot on it for a while and the factory stock just doesn't have a high enough cheekweld for comfortable optics use, so I went back to irons only and like it that way. It just felt "clunky" with the optics, other than that ergonomics are great.

I have 2 M1As, 1 scoped and 1 in National Match flavor with iron sights. Great rifles to shoot, very smooth, very reliable, great feel to them, both are 3/4 MOA accurate with my handloads (but they are both handbuilt accurized rifles, 1 is a Fulton Peerless and 1 is a Ted Brown LRB custom build.) A lot heavier than the FAL, but since both are accuracy-type rifles they have heavy stocks and heavy barrels so it's not a fair comparison to say a rack-grade M1A with a USGI fiberglass stock and a standard weight barrel. A 18" M1A "bush" rifle in a USGI fiberglass stock is decently light and very easy to handle. I'd like to build one...

I also have a 24" AR-10 now; it's the most accurate out of all of them, running about 5/8 MOA with handloads, and I built it for a little less than half the price of my cheaper M1A... ouch! It's not as light as I thought it would be, about 12# with the scope. Very familiar feel & ergonomics especially if you're used to AR's.

As far as other platform considerations, such as maintenance... and a quick summary:

M1A -- Biggest pain to clean out of the 3 platforms. Have to do everything from the muzzle. Have to clean the piston & gas system every 300 rounds or so and you'll need a cylinder wrench and a torque wrench plus cleaning tools (i.e. drill bits) to do it right. In the case of my NM rifle, I also have to worry about solvent dripping into the bedding, I always unlatch the trigger guard to relieve pressure off the stock when I'm not shooting it, etc. However if you use the proper grease the op rod & bolt can go for a long time without needing cleaning & regreasing. GREAT iron sights. Can run detachable mags as long as you're not running an aftermarket pistol grip stock such as the MCS. USGI parts are expensive and going up in price every year.

AR-10 -- it had some teething issues because of a slightly undersized gas port from Armalite, but I fixed that and now it runs great. If you know how to clean & maintain an AR-15, you can handle an AR-10. Modular & easy to work on. Easy to clean from the breach. Easy to make changes. Mags are expensive... $45/ea for Armalite Gen 2's. Great optics platform. Can run detachables with an MMG. Uses a lot of parts interchangeable with an AR-15, and the AR-10 specific parts aren't unreasonable in price.

FAL -- very reliable. Easy to maintain, tool-less gas piston removal. Adjustable gas system for varying ammo, also tool-less adjustment. Easy cleaning from breech. Cheap mags. Trigger is heavy, but some places offer trigger jobs or you can try your own. Standard stock isn't too friendly for optics, really low cheek weld. Normal iron sights are so-so but adequate for the original purpose of the rifle. Fixed mag or bullet button, or whip up your own non-pistol grip (is the FAL-MMG out yet?) Parts are easy to get and relatively inexpensive.

That's my view.

[-hanko]

No correct answer...

I have more than a few FAL's and a semi-M14.

The ergo's of the FAL's are superior, routine maintenance is easier, parts are less expensive & easier to find. Not too difficult to build your own if you like to get to know your rifle intimately. The FAL Files is arguably the most helpful and mature rifle site on the www. I can shoot 2.5" at a hundred all day with irons, and I need glasses to drive. Scoped, I'm at 1.5-2" depending on ammo, and I shoot surplus only.

DSA is the current quality leader for a new FAL, Enterprise is supposedly better than in the past, but that's a cyclical thing for them. Enterprise has a lifetime guarantee, occasionally something you're very thankful for. Spend some time on the FAL Files before you select a gun and put down your dollars.


My M14 is Polytech with USGI bolt, trigger group, op rod and op rod guide. She gets me to 2" easily with match commercial ammo, about the same with surplus as the FAL...that's a shooter thing, not a rifle thing. I'll scope the gun in a few months, Sadlak is relatively proud of their mounts.

The M14 is inherently more accurate. The platform is not as shooter-friendly as an FAL, parts are more $$$ and not as common, mags are definitely more expensive...they're also not as friendly as the FAL since they need to be rocked-in like an AK; after the sight mount I'll get an EM2 stock and see if the pistol grip helps. Maintenance is more "interesting", grease in some places instead of oil, gas system cleaning with twist drills, etc. You'll need more stuff to maintain the weapon, but most of us have no issue with more stuff.

As to buying the M14, the ultimate is LRB in craftsmanship, lead time, and cost. Since Springfield no longer uses all-USGI parts, you can get one and retrofit it or leave as is from the factory & hope you have no issues. I'd still take a Polytech with USGI bolt, at least (after an LRB or neutered M14)...do a little reading before you buy, but either the FAL or semi-M14 sound like what you'll love.

As to the PTR, building your own is a step or 2 more complicated than the FAL, ergonomics are teh sux (imo), and it likes to destroy brass; good to know if you reload. Early PTR's had issues with crappy barrels, can't tell you if that's been fixed or not but I'd guess it has. Serial number starting with 'A' were sold as completed rifles, 'B' numbered receivers are DIY guns.

CETME's were great when Century first offered them for $350, for now I'd pass unless you need one just to fill out a collection.

Sorry if the post exhausted you, but hth anyway. Let us know what you get.

-hanko

[cal3gunner]

Thanks for all the posts so far. Any and all info is appreciated.

It looks like I have a lot of homework to do on the Fal. I really don't know that much about them but it sounds like a good option so far. I added that Fal files website to my favorites and will give it a good read later when I have more time.
2.5 MOA would be good enough for this rifle. It sounds like after buying the rifle, this would be a cost effective rifle for mags and parts to keep it running years down the road.

Are the Fals on the market right now brand new or are they older rifles that have been rebuilt? If rebuilds, does anyone have a recomendation on who to look at for buying one?

I'm still interested in a Saiga.
I read an article on a Saiga 308 and they said they were getting 2 inch groups at 50 yards with Hornady Tap ammo. Does that sound about right?
I really don't want a 4 MOA gun so if thats all its capable of, I'll stay away from them.

Thanks for the info