.260 vs 6mm br /savage

[MongooseV8]

I use a 243AI for long range squirrels. But a 6BR is a great choice too.

[postal]

Thats interesting Lynn.

I never did look too closely at 6br.

Perhaps because of shorter range- 300yd/meter competitions (which popularized the 6br in the US?) that was using a flat base, and the BC of the flatbase bullets went to crap at longer distances.. is what gave me the impression longer distance was not great. Without accounting for high bc boat tails.

[ar15barrels]

My main reason for not shooting a 6br is that they do not feed as well through AICS mags as slightly longer cartridges do.
Most 6br shooters are shooting them as single shots.

[JMP]

308 Winchester which as we all know is the Calguns unanimous choice for 1000 yards and beyond go to cartridge

Oh please, I don't hear folks touting the .308 Winchester as a great 1,000 yard cartridge. Rather, .308 Winchester is a good place to start out.

It would be under 500 yards. I've read good things about both cartridges. What would you pick? Maybe some other caliber?

Going back to the OP's sub 500 yard objective, I'd contemplate .308 Winchester or a short action 6.5mm cartridge. At this range, the .308 is a good shooter. I'd prefer to shoot a 6mm cartridge at greater ranges. At short to intermediate ranges, the 6mms are a bit fast. I find it a bit easier to watch my shot with a slower cartridge.

[kmullins]

Mangy Coyote,

The 6BR is an awesome round and my favorite family of cartridges (6BR, 22BR, 20BR). The design of the case is extremely efficent and inherently accurate.

A few things to consider:

First, are you interested in keeping your Savage 11 as a repeater? This will help you choose your cartridge. You will have a tough time feeding a short fat cartridge like a BR. Since it is already a .243 and if you want to keep it a repeater, you may want to stick with cartridges from the .308 family.

Second, if you do not care about having a repeater and plan to use a single shot adapater/sled, this opens up a whole new world of interesting wildcats and cartridges.

For your intended use of a long range varmint rig that will be shot under and at 500 yards, seriously consider the 6BR (if you want to use a single shot adapter). If you want a little extra "oomph" for possible longer shots, look at the 6 Dasher, 6XC, 6BRX or possibly the 300 WSM.

[Wrangler John]

The nifty thing about the .308 Winchester internal magazines, such as that on the Remington 700 SA is that it works with a lot of cartridges. You can stuff the .22-250, .243, 6mm Remington and .308 into them, and even the .22-250 Ackley, the .257 Roberts and it's Ackley version (some say you need a long action for this cartridge, but 117-120 grain factory ammo fits perfectly). I found the same thing for some aftermarket detachable magazines, with other cartridges working as well. I can not talk as to the flexibility of the Savage magazines, as I do not work with anything other than the single shot Savage target actions. However a little experimenting should determine that one way or another. You gotta try it to know if it'll work.

At one point I was considering buying one of the custom uppers for an AR-15 made in .243 WSSM (http://www.dtechuppers.com/ar-15-wss...receivers.html). So just for a lark I stuffed my .243 WSSM varmint loads into a Colt magazine. Danged if they didn't fit. All it would take is a little polishing of the feed lips to prevent scratching the cases.



As for which cartridges are the most accurate, well that's mostly bunk. Any cartridge will be accurate in a top notch barrel, of a fast enough twist to stabilize a wide range of bullets, properly chambered and installed with minimum runout. A lot of what we believe to be true is simply myths and legends told repeatedly until everybody squawks it like a parrot.

This is a 100 yard sight-in group from my .243 WSSM using the 62 Grain Varmint Grenade over 49.5 grains of Ramshot Hunter. First shot hit a little low to the right, so the turrets were adjusted until impact was brought to the center of the V on the "X". Now people say the .243 WSSM isn't going to be accurate because the neck is too thick and . . . yada, yada, yada. These loads were not neck turned, I discovered it doesn't make any difference, they were taken out of the bag, primer pockets deburred and uniformed, sized and loaded. The rifle is one of my home made concoctions, Savage PTA, prefit Brux Barrel I screwed on, semi-finished laminate stock, factory trigger.



So, if this much disparaged cartridge can be that consistent, they all can when fired in good equipment, especially when some old guy can screw a rifle together in his garage with hand tools. Remember, the barrel and chamber is everything, all else follows. Message is don't become discouraged with an idea, some may poo-poo your concept but gather all the data possible and forge ahead if you deem it practical. Although, keep in mind I spend thousands of dollars annually tinkering around, and there is a scrap bin nearby.

[Mangy Coyote]

Mangy Coyote,

The 6BR is an awesome round and my favorite family of cartridges (6BR, 22BR, 20BR). The design of the case is extremely efficent and inherently accurate.

A few things to consider:

First, are you interested in keeping your Savage 11 as a repeater? This will help you choose your cartridge. You will have a tough time feeding a short fat cartridge like a BR. Since it is already a .243 and if you want to keep it a repeater, you may want to stick with cartridges from the .308 family.

Second, if you do not care about having a repeater and plan to use a single shot adapater/sled, this opens up a whole new world of interesting wildcats and cartridges.

For your intended use of a long range varmint rig that will be shot under and at 500 yards, seriously consider the 6BR (if you want to use a single shot adapter). If you want a little extra "oomph" for possible longer shots, look at the 6 Dasher, 6XC, 6BRX or possibly the 300 WSM.

I don't mind using it as a single shot. The 11 has a blind box no detachable mag. When I get a new stock for it I'm not planning on converting over to a mag.
I really appreciate everyone's insight!

[LynnJr]

JMP
My only reason for posting on this forum was because of a shooter I was training getting bad info here. I would meet him at the range and after 15 minutes of conversation about 308 Winchesters and Headspace I was ready to break his laptop. So far I see nothing to change my mind.

OP
The 6BR with a 8 twist barrel shooting 103-108 grain bullets mimics the 300 Winchester magnum shooting 190's all the way to 1000 yards in every category except retained energy. They are ballistic twins except the heavier bullet from the 300 Win Mag hits harder. The advantage is 40+ grains less powder no recoil long barrel life and world class accuracy.
An out of tune 6BR will shoot sub 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards and factory loads average 0.350 inch for 5 shots. That means the wrong powder charge and the seating depth at its worst possible length.
If a 6BR shoots 3/4 inch at 100 yards for 5 shots the gun is mechanically broken.
On the feeding issue the shorter over all length of the 6BR means the round wants to jump out of the magazine quicker and this will often times result in a jam. The center feed magazines work better than the stagger feed magazines but a quick fix is too add a spacer block on your follower. Savage followers are dirt cheap and a small block of aluminum and some epoxy are as well.
Benchrest gunsmith Mike Bryant out of Wheeler Texas has the procedure on his website for adding a block.
Hornady,Sierra and Berger all make a good 105-108 grain bullet for the 6 BR and Vapor Trail Bullets formerly Clay Spencer make the best 6mm longrange bullet on the planet today.
If your after varmints just drop down to the 70 gr Sierra Matchking or a Berger of similar weight and your all set.
Get a 8 twist barrel not a 10 or 12 twist and you will be very very happy with your choice.
There is nothing wrong with a 243 but you gain only 150 fps and to get that you burn and extra 15 grains of powder and lose some accuracy and barrel life.
The 6 Dasher is simply a 6BR case improved as is the 6 BRX and 6Baby Shehane.
As to the statement that the 6BR might be myth or lore there is a dedicated website to the cartridge and its many many victories and records. www.6mmbr.com this isn't a guess a hunch a myth or an opinion this is a fact.
The 243 WSSM does have necks that are too thick and when it is loaded down the cases tend to collapse because the thicker necks don't maintain a seal against the chambers walls. The group in the picture appears to be around 3 bullet widths wide or 0.729 minus one bullet width to give us a actual size would be 0.729 - 0.243 = 0.486 or right around 1/2 MOA. If we assume a pta stands for Precision Target Action and we know a brux barrel is a custom cut rifled barrel the group in question is decent given that the bullets are sub par. In 6BR that same group would be a every day occurrence with many many wallet type groups added in. You would also be burning 15-20 grains less powder which means less fouling and longer accuracy.

[JMP]

JMP
My only reason for posting on this forum was because of a shooter I was training getting bad info here. I would meet him at the range and after 15 minutes of conversation about 308 Winchesters and Headspace I was ready to break his laptop. So far I see nothing to change my mind.

You should have simply broke his laptop. Ballistic mythology has been around since the invention of the rifle. With the internet, this mythology propagates infinitely.

[MongooseV8]

I think thats the point LynnJr was making. A ton of people here suggest the 308 is perfect for 1K yards.

[JMP]

I think thats the point LynnJr was making. A ton of people here suggest the 308 is perfect for 1K yards.

Perfect, far from it, but for someone just learning, it's the way to go as you get the best selection of ammo and rifles, then it is is easily adapted for a different cartridge with a new barrel. Most factory barrels are-sub par anyhow.

There are three essential components to shooting accurately:
1. Rifle & Scope
2. Ammo
3. The shooter

You can best manage 1. & 2. It's a tragedy for a new shooter to try "precision" or "long range" without a baseline for 1. & 2. I strongly advise against a new shooter trying to pick the best cartridge that may require self-loading if he isn't experienced. At the range, I see folks all the time experimenting and testing their loads to death seeking that magical load that doesn't really exist because he has sub-par equipment and/or experience.

If you get an off the shelf R700 with the whiffle bat stock and an XMP trigger, a Chinese optic, and begin to reload for it--it's the perfect storm.

[MongooseV8]

Exactly.

[LynnJr]

I would never recommend a 308 to anyone wanting to shoot 1000 yards. The factory ammo and poor ballistics doom them to failure and then they don't want to shoot anymore.
A Savage 6BR with factory ammo is head over heels above 99% of the 308's available off the shelf.
As the OP is already reloading he needs 100 Lapua cases 1000 CCI 450 Magnum primers a 8 pound jug of Varget or RE15 and 500 6mm 107 grain Sierra Matchkings.
THe novice reloader can take the brass out of the box seat a CCI 450 Magnum primer and 30.4 grains of Varget then seat a bullet so it gets a scratch on it when closing the bolt and shoot 1/2 inch or less all day long.
The moderate level reloader can find the best seating depth in one or two trips to the range.
A talented reloader will shoot the brass atleast once then fully prep it.

[ar15barrels]

I would never recommend a 308 to anyone wanting to shoot 1000 yards. The factory ammo and poor ballistics doom them to failure and then they don't want to shoot anymore.

My 5 years experience of teaching newbie shooters to shoot out to 1000yds shows your statement to be false.

[Wrangler John]

JMP
My only reason for posting on this forum was because of a shooter I was training getting bad info here. I would meet him at the range and after 15 minutes of conversation about 308 Winchesters and Headspace I was ready to break his laptop. So far I see nothing to change my mind.

OP
The 6BR with a 8 twist barrel shooting 103-108 grain bullets mimics the 300 Winchester magnum shooting 190's all the way to 1000 yards in every category except retained energy. They are ballistic twins except the heavier bullet from the 300 Win Mag hits harder. The advantage is 40+ grains less powder no recoil long barrel life and world class accuracy.
An out of tune 6BR will shoot sub 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards and factory loads average 0.350 inch for 5 shots. That means the wrong powder charge and the seating depth at its worst possible length.
If a 6BR shoots 3/4 inch at 100 yards for 5 shots the gun is mechanically broken.
On the feeding issue the shorter over all length of the 6BR means the round wants to jump out of the magazine quicker and this will often times result in a jam. The center feed magazines work better than the stagger feed magazines but a quick fix is too add a spacer block on your follower. Savage followers are dirt cheap and a small block of aluminum and some epoxy are as well.
Benchrest gunsmith Mike Bryant out of Wheeler Texas has the procedure on his website for adding a block.
Hornady,Sierra and Berger all make a good 105-108 grain bullet for the 6 BR and Vapor Trail Bullets formerly Clay Spencer make the best 6mm longrange bullet on the planet today.
If your after varmints just drop down to the 70 gr Sierra Matchking or a Berger of similar weight and your all set.
Get a 8 twist barrel not a 10 or 12 twist and you will be very very happy with your choice.
There is nothing wrong with a 243 but you gain only 150 fps and to get that you burn and extra 15 grains of powder and lose some accuracy and barrel life.
The 6 Dasher is simply a 6BR case improved as is the 6 BRX and 6Baby Shehane.
As to the statement that the 6BR might be myth or lore there is a dedicated website to the cartridge and its many many victories and records. www.6mmbr.com this isn't a guess a hunch a myth or an opinion this is a fact.
The 243 WSSM does have necks that are too thick and when it is loaded down the cases tend to collapse because the thicker necks don't maintain a seal against the chambers walls. The group in the picture appears to be around 3 bullet widths wide or 0.729 minus one bullet width to give us a actual size would be 0.729 - 0.243 = 0.486 or right around 1/2 MOA. If we assume a pta stands for Precision Target Action and we know a brux barrel is a custom cut rifled barrel the group in question is decent given that the bullets are sub par. In 6BR that same group would be a every day occurrence with many many wallet type groups added in. You would also be burning 15-20 grains less powder which means less fouling and longer accuracy.

Lynn:

You didn't read the text accompanying the photo. That group from the .243 WSSM was a composite of three separate sight adjustments. The final group would have measured around .187". This rifle is astoundingly accurate and has accounted for sage rats out to 330 yards in abysmal conditions (crossing gusty wind, intermittent sleet and rain). As I said, the barrel and chamber is everything, there being no substitute for quality manufacture and craftsmanship. I have had no problems with case necks, this cartridge is simply one of the victims of that mythology. For that matter I posted links to 6mmBR.com and AccurateShooter.com as reference to the 6XC.

The 6mm BR is a good cartridge similar to the 6PPC, with an enviable record and that's great as far as it goes. Here I'm not speaking to pure target competition over fixed ranges but practical shooting at small varmints. While groups are an indicator of consistency and accuracy, what I am referring to is where that first shot will impact, with a mix of shots from a cold and clean barrel, hot and fouled barrel, closer in, father away, changing incline, variable winds, across flat terrain or canyons, freshly irrigated alfalfa, dry scrub, or whatever. The more important factor is that all this proves is that any cartridge in a properly prepared premium barrel bedded in a stable stock without stress, will deliver accuracy sufficient for the purpose.

I am not shooting for groups, I am not a benchrest shooter, but for effect on a single target at a time, under completely different conditions at variable ranges. This is my game from here:



to here:



with this result:



The above squirrel had his throat cut by a 62 grain Varmint Grenade that hit low across the downed tree branch he was sitting on. I had misjudged the range. The bullet never touched the squirrel, but the fragments of bullet and splinters from the tree did the deed. Which is why the Varmint Grenade is an ideal bullet for the task, it explodes when hitting solid objects and doesn't ricochet. Similarly the 40 Grain Nosler BT Lead Free in a .223 Remington. Which shot this cute little group, 10 shots @100:



Shot from the road where my crew cab 4x4 is parked here (look closely for the gray truck):



Actually I'm somewhat embarrassed as these shots were only about 200 -250 yards:



Each one was hit in the chest, with the little polycarbonate bullet tip blowing a hole through the squirrel's head. many squirrels died that day.

In the final analysis, if someone wants to hunt varmint and do a bit of competition shooting as a novice, then any suitable cartridge that meets both requirements will suffice, keeping in mind the need for a sufficient capacity to maintain higher velocities. However, to hunt in California lead free will be required. Even so, my Oregon friend has also switched to lead free bullets for their improved accuracy. Lead free bullets will require somewhat different chamber and twist specifications. It is my advice to not get too hung up on benchrest competition, records and equipment, but rather to use benchrest to inform us as to an initial direction to take. After all, when the 6mmPPC didn't pan out, I tried the .243 WSSM because it had a greater case capacity, throat length, and case shape similar to the PPC. I adapted benchrest performance of the PPC in selection of the .243 WSSM, learning in turn that sub-par bullets shot from parts rifles can do some fun things.