URSA 2000 Yard October Match Results

[LynnJr]

Well we all got together early Sunday morning to get in some unlimited range shooting and wish our own RickyRacer87 a happy birthday.

The rain held off and early on the winds where under 10 mph and everyone was hopeful of a win.

RickyRacer87 had a long talk with the shooting gods and let them know it was his birthday and he was expecting the best birthday present ever and they obliged.

During his first qualification round he went 9 out of 10 tying our previous most hits score set by Focus who posts here.
He then went on to best poster Brando or Dogtown depending on which forum you visit on the first match of the day. Great shooting RickyRacer87 and a genuine pleasure finally getting to meet Brando(aka Dogtown) in person and shoot with him!!!

We had time and the weather was cooperating so we decided to get in a second match before the rain rolled in.
RickyRacer87 took that match outright and second place finisher Ken Eng ran out of ammo as did I.

I think only 2 shooters had any ammo left after the matches finished!!!

Congratulations and a Very Happy Birthday go out to King of 2054 Yards double match winner RickyRacer87!!!! You did well my friend.

Brando it was great finally meeting up with you and we hope you had a good time.

Memo to Ken and Lynn bring more ammo!!!
Shaun Brady you missed a good match and Brando is the real deal so save that ammo for November.

A big thank you to our shooters and elr-researcher for allowing these matches to take place!!!

Hopefully rickyracer87 got some good footage of his shooting with his new camera and we can all see how he did it.

Edit:
Rickyracer87 is our first qualifier for next year's 3K match!!!!
Brando finished runner-up in his first URSA match!!!

[brando]

Good times indeed and good to meet everyone finally after so many years of being away from things.

[LynnJr]

https://youtu.be/o9JHSE_-Zyk

Video of Rickyracer87 going 9/10 and you can hear Brando in the background calling the shots.

[focus]

https://youtu.be/o9JHSE_-Zyk

Video of Rickyracer87 going 9/10 and you can hear Brando in the background calling the shots.

[brando]

I used my 28" .300 Norma Mag barrel for the match, which was fine to 2000 yards, but in the future (after that *** whooping I got) I'll probably use my 36" .338LM Improved 40 barrel.

[ELR Researcher]

Added pics and video link to Gallery - https://www.unlimitedrange.org/gallery.html

[BillyGoatMachine]

Sounds like some great shooting by all. And hats off again to RickRacer for raising the benchmark yet again. Focus, I could be mistaken but I believe RickyRacer now has his own reamer that I talked him into, but I doubt we'll be using it on his next re-barrel. I believe more powder will be needed for his next chambering! Hope the weather holds and I can make it out for a November match. Hunting season is almost over so I should have some free time...

A huge thanks to Lynn for putting on these matches. Thank you SIR!!

[ShaunBrady]

Shaun Brady you missed a good match and Brando is the real deal so save that ammo for November.

I'm sorry I missed it, it wasn't for a lack of interest or effort. A buddy needed help getting a building ready for last weeks rain Saturday and I just didn't have anything left for Sunday.

I've had a side project going for years trying to get the 30 caliber Flatlines to hold vertical and would like to have seen how the Senecas were working for Brando.

I'm not sure it'll still be the same ammo, but I'm planning on attending the November match.

[ShaunBrady]

https://youtu.be/o9JHSE_-Zyk

Video of Rickyracer87 going 9/10 and you can hear Brando in the background calling the shots.

That video is remarkable on a few levels.

The score is just for starters.

The plumes from the splashes indicate the wind isn't insignificant or constant.

It's hugely difficult to load ammunition that holds the vertical spread that low. Even after you drive the velocity spreads into the dirt, most bullets just won't do it at that range. Especially the really high BC ones. Those that do generally take a lot of sorting, culling, etc.. By the time you're into the etc., solids start to look affordable.

The real eye opener for me was being able to spot the shots on the gong. In the early URSA days, I'd put my sighters into the berm in front of the target because while the light indicated hits, I usually couldn't see the poi on the gong. I've been through better rifle & spotting scopes, high zoom digital cameras, and phoneskopes. The TactaCam on a decent spotter to a tablet next to the rifle is a big step forward even if you're not recording. It also keeps expensive spotting scopes out of the muzzle blast if you're self spotting.

[LynnJr]

Hey Shaun
I don't know what camera system RickyRacer87 was using but even at 6:30 in the morning it was crystal clear enough that I took a picture of it with my phone.
He then had that zoomed in at his monitor next to the gun.
I upgraded from the cheapest white $15 a gallon paint to the whitest paint Sherwin Williams makes at $68 a gallon and it really showed up well.
I measured RickyRacer87 hits in the .idle of the gong but if I posted the results this thread would get hijacked and RickyRacer87 is to nice a guy for that.

As Skeeter posted he is adding a 33xc to his arsenal as soon as this barrel quits shooting and will have some extra velocity for 2500 yards.
Getting past 9/10 from Focus is proving to be quite difficult but he seems very committed and focused(no pun intended) on getting it done.
We are still using the Robert's Tactical lights to score the matches we just put the T1000 on the gong for those zooming in at 40+ power so they could see a light.
I would move the Robert's Tactical lights closer but as you noted the wind was really blowing in there direction and so far nobody has hit a light or the battery pack.
It's time for you to get back up the mountain!!!

[brando]

The camera system the video was shot with was pretty impressive. He was also using an external monitor to help spot the shots.

As for the 212gr Senecas, this was the first time shooting them at distance, so it's not necessarily a good place to start. It was a load I developed over the summer (89gr N570 seated 3.91" COAL) that was reliably 1/2MOA, but never shot beyond 100 yards.

I plugged into FFS an average velocity of 3050fps gathered over a 10-shot test (and confirmed across all shots during the match) and the published BC from PVA, which predicted about 18 mils (after 1.7 mil zero offset), which isn't bad considering the elevation of the firing point. However, in typical ELR fashion there were a lot of early practice rounds with no splash that were revealed to be hitting two mils low in the underbrush. So my solution to get on target ended up being 20 mils with that load. Why was it more than predicted? Usually that's a muzzle velocity and/or BC issue, but 2 mils difference is kind of extreme.

Now that my normal BLM spot should be opening soon I expect to be able to better true the load to FFS.

EDIT: I'm now thinking that I borked the whole thing up by somehow not including the mil offset with my rifle. This particular barrel/load combo zero is 1.7U and 0.4L and while FFS handles offsets nicely, going back and looking at what it predicts using data from that day, it should have been 18.3mils + 1.7mil offset = 20.0 mils. So....operator headspace and timing most likely culprit.

[ShaunBrady]

As for the 212gr Senecas, this was the first time shooting them at distance, so it's not necessarily a good place to start. It was a load I developed over the summer (89gr N570 seated 3.91" COAL) that was reliably 1/2MOA, but never shot beyond 100 yards.

I plugged into FFS an average velocity of 3050fps gathered over a 10-shot test (and confirmed across all shots during the match) and the published BC from PVA, which predicted about 18 mils (after 1.7 mil zero offset), which isn't bad considering the elevation of the firing point. However, in typical ELR fashion there were a lot of early practice rounds with no splash that were revealed to be hitting two mils low in the underbrush. So my solution to get on target ended up being 20 mils with that load. Why was it more than predicted? Usually that's a muzzle velocity and/or BC issue, but 2 mils difference is kind of extreme.

Now that my normal BLM spot should be opening soon I expect to be able to better true the load to FFS.

EDIT: I'm now thinking that I borked the whole thing up by somehow not including the mil offset with my rifle. This particular barrel/load combo zero is 1.7U and 0.4L and while FFS handles offsets nicely, going back and looking at what it predicts using data from that day, it should have been 18.3mils + 1.7mil offset = 20.0 mils. So....operator headspace and timing most likely culprit.

The 198 Flatlines don't follow a G7 drag profile, so they can't be trued for all distances and elevations with a single BC. A single BC works well enough to adjust for changes in conditions at 1 location and distance though. Many of the newer bullets, included lead core, are this way. I've assumed the Seneca are not much different. The practice range I use has 4 targets from 1200 to 2300 yards, so I've used stepped BCs in the past. A custom drag model would also work, but I haven't seen one offered for that bullet. I've had good results with the Hornady 4DOF for the ATips and have been meaning to try their Flatline model.

The larger problem I've had with the Flatlines is they won't hold vertical well enough to be of much use. They're great for taking elevation out of the turret, but not so much for scoring. Bum rushing the target through conditions with raw velocity/BC product worked well enough when USRA matches were being settled on hits, but it's not going to work for 10/10 cleans or matches settled on misses. My impression is the Seneca were basically second generation Flatlines and I was wondering if they were any better on the vertical spread.

I have 1 last test to do that I've been putting off for awhile. I'm using a 1:7 300 Lapua and testing with and without the nose ring.

[brando]

Yep, Seneca are basically 2nd gen Flatlines, but seem to perform more or less the same. They're not as finicky as Cutting Edge bullets I find and are really tolerant about seating. The most interesting thing I've experienced so far with the Seneca was during load development. Normally I work up precision loads like this:

1. load up single rounds with incremental charges to map the pressure window and ballpark velocity
2. pick a zone of charge weights to test for consistency
3. pick a charge weight and test for groups with seating depth
4. pick a load and test to confirm.

Now normally it's pretty common in Step 2 & 3 to see groups go through a sinusoidal pattern of expanding and contracting. But for some reason this .300NM 212gr Seneca N570 load didn't do that. I picked a charge range of 88-90gr and did 0.3gr increments, but nearly all grouped very nicely, even though I wasn't paying attention to groups at that stage. Then when I did seating depth tests I saw the same thing with essentially no change in precision. So I picked the most consistent charge and longest seating and just confirmed with 10 rounds before going to the match.

That's very interesting about stepped BC, but in hindsight it makes a lot of sense. Ideally it would be nice to shoot some Shotmarker targets at distance to get downrange velocity to compute a custom BC, but in lieu of that it's just going to come down to getting DOPE at incremental distances, which I haven't done yet with this load.

As for vertical stringing, I can't offer any insight yet based on a single match where turbulent mid-range wind was a major factor. The Danger Space at 2000+ yards shrinks fairly rapidly so any vertical stringing is going to magnify the margin of error. But it was available elevation and transonic distance that were my main interest in trying the Seneca over my proven Berger 220LR load. Now that I have a TARAC Charlie on order, that might be moot.

[ShaunBrady]

Hey Shaun
I don't know what camera system RickyRacer87 was using but even at 6:30 in the morning it was crystal clear enough that I took a picture of it with my phone.
He then had that zoomed in at his monitor next to the gun.

From his 2500 yard video, I assumed it was a TactaCam through a Swaro STR80 with the reticle turned off? Then to a tablet next to the gun.

I had a similar system up and running a couple weeks ago on my 80mm Mk4. It's a big step forward, especially for shooting without a spotter.

I upgraded from the cheapest white $15 a gallon paint to the whitest paint Sherwin Williams makes at $68 a gallon and it really showed up well.

Sounds like it's time to start passing a hat around for match consumables.....

I measured RickyRacer87 hits in the .idle of the gong but if I posted the results this thread would get hijacked and RickyRacer87 is to nice a guy for that.

The people who've actually done enough of this to recognize what happened there appreciate it's significance. Who really cares about what the internet thinks?

As Skeeter posted he is adding a 33xc to his arsenal as soon as this barrel quits shooting and will have some extra velocity for 2500 yards.
Getting past 9/10 from Focus is proving to be quite difficult but he seems very committed and focused(no pun intended) on getting it done.

I've had good luck with my 33XC shooting the ATips. The brass is great and so are the dies. I think it'll become a URSA workhorse. It's a less expensive alternative/lower recoil alternative to the 375s and easier than the improved 338 Lapuas.

I have a 1:7 338 barrel to chamber when an action frees up. That pencils out well for the 300 grain Lazers.

I think the 10/10 goal will fall when conditions are good rather than OK and getting worse.

We are still using the Robert's Tactical lights to score the matches we just put the T1000 on the gong for those zooming in at 40+ power so they could see a light.

That's a 60x spotter * 4x digital zoom for 240x to a 30 fps 4K monitor. At least that's how I'm running mine.

It's time for you to get back up the mountain!!!

It wasn't for a lack of trying. I'd tested the 300 PRC RPR to 2300 yards a couple weeks before. My TactaCam system is up and running. I had nearly 100 rounds each of 300 PRC and 33xc ammo loaded. I'd made a sunscreen for my Mk4 Friday morning before I got the call for help on Saturday. At least I didn't bring the weather with me this time.

[ShaunBrady]

Ideally it would be nice to shoot some Shotmarker targets at distance to get downrange velocity to compute a custom BC, but in lieu of that it's just going to come down to getting DOPE at incremental distances, which I haven't done yet with this load.

Funny you should mention ShotMarker. I'm 8-10 weeks into an order for one and am holding my breath for a ship notice.

Walt from Gunsite has posted he uses the method you describe. I don't doubt that it works better than having just any knucklehead that came up with the course fee develop their own dope. Some of the YouTube guys have doubts about how useful the velocity data is. The internet is what it is, we'll see when it gets here.

I'm after a digital method of recording the vertical dispersion. The method I use now is extremely tedious and a great example of an engineer sucking the fun out of everything.

As for vertical stringing, I can't offer any insight yet based on a single match where turbulent mid-range wind was a major factor. The Danger Space at 2000+ yards shrinks fairly rapidly so any vertical stringing is going to magnify the margin of error.

A method I've used to get around the conditions are never perfect at those distances problem is to set up a baseline to test against. Ammo, gun, or both. Two guns gives you something to do while one gun is cooling off. The baseline doesn't have to be the best combination, just easy to produce consistently with readily available components. I've always used Hodgdon Extreme powders for my baselines to keep the results as consistent at different temperatures as I can. Right now, Hodgdon powders of just about any type violate the readily available requirement, but so does pretty much everything else. I experiment with the double base powders, but have always decided the extra velocity wasn't worth the overheads.

But it was available elevation and transonic distance that were my main interest in trying the Seneca over my proven Berger 220LR load. Now that I have a TARAC Charlie on order, that might be moot.

I have a Taco Charlie but still haven't tested it.

In general, getting elevation is a lot easier than it was a few years ago.

With the right bullets, I don't worry about the transonic thing much, but yea, as the required elevation heads past 30 mils there aren't a lot of days you'll hit much. I think a lot of the concern about staying supersonic is an oversimplification for problems that started long before the bullet slowed down that far. You don't want to be competing against loads that are still supersonic if they can match your accuracy, velocity spread, and BC variation, but it's tough to get much further without screwing up one of those "ifs".

The ELR end game will always wind up deep into the transonic and well below Mach 1.