fly weight breakdown skeleton single shot pack rifle?

[LynnJr]

https://www.lettieriauction.com/auct...net_67E415A965

Hasn't been made since 1986. So far from fitting OP viability criteria.

As to quoted price. SHOW ME! With ANY listing ANYWHERE.

H&R barrels alone, are going for as much as twice your price.

Do a very simple google search and on the very first page there are 2 rifles both sold for under $200 in the last year.
I don't need some nutjob showing me primers for $2 each to know the actual going rate and not fantasy land.
I will sell you mine complete and you can part it out and make youself a fortune.

https://www.lettieriauction.com/auction-lot/harrington-richardson-topper-model-158-22-hornet_67E415A965

[pacrat]

https://www.lettieriauction.com/auct...net_67E415A965

Do a very simple google search and on the very first page there are 2 rifles both sold for under $200 in the last year.
I don't need some nutjob showing me primers for $2 each to know the actual going rate and not fantasy land.
I will sell you mine complete and you can part it out and make youself a fortune.

https://www.lettieriauction.com/auct...net_67E415A965

Congratulations, you posted the same link twice. Then claim it is 2 different rifles.

Which even back in Oct 2020 was a smoking deal. And assuredly NOT THE NORM.

Now a few reminders from OP;

I'm thinking a good quality kit would sell for about $100-150

The OP made a "commercial feasibility query".

You're really gonna have to stretch your Sleepy Joe economics premise, to show how he can buy a gun for even $180. Mod it, Sell it for $150 and make a profit.

Even if he manages to find 100 Unicorn deals like you posted. Does the mods. And sells them for a net $30 per unit loss on matl at his $150 price point. He will have lost $3,000 just in Matl cost.

It would be like a Little Badger but more so, probably with 3-piece (top, bottom, butt-plate) stamped metal frame that can fold flat against the barrel.

As previously noted. An H&R CANNOT be MADE TO FOLD. Sure some Bubba Hack could use a bolt and wingnut to hold it together. But with what result? Since the H&R HEADSPACES on the hinge pen. And that PIN must be "precision ground" to properly work. After market vendors make precision ground oversized pins for Contenders and H&Rs so smiths can fit them.

That is definitely a "WINGNUT" idea.

A H-R Topper will never fit your parameters. Hinge symmetry is wrong location to ever be a "folder". And a SB-2 H&R barrel in smaller CF rifle calibers, are going for more than your overall price point.

All of the above quote is still factually correct. Sleepy Joe economics, and Bubba Hack Wingnut ideas change nothing.

[five.five-six]

There is no actual formula.
It's determined by the technical branch examining a submitted sample.
Basically, if you can complete it at home with common hand tools, it's going to be determined to be a firearm.
In order to NOT be a firearm, the submitted sample needs to take a real machine shop to complete.

Given enough gumption, and time I could convert any appropriate sized solid chunk of aluminum into an AR pattern lower or sheet metal into an AKM receiver with nothing more than basic hand tools. Might not be pretty but would be functional.

[LynnJr]

Congratulations, you posted the same link twice. Then claim it is 2 different rifles.

Which even back in Oct 2020 was a smoking deal. And assuredly NOT THE NORM.

Now a few reminders from OP;



The OP made a "commercial feasibility query".

You're really gonna have to stretch your Sleepy Joe economics premise, to show how he can buy a gun for even $180. Mod it, Sell it for $150 and make a profit.

Even if he manages to find 100 Unicorn deals like you posted. Does the mods. And sells them for a net $30 per unit loss on matl at his $150 price point. He will have lost $3,000 just in Matl cost.



As previously noted. An H&R CANNOT be MADE TO FOLD. Sure some Bubba Hack could use a bolt and wingnut to hold it together. But with what result? Since the H&R HEADSPACES on the hinge pen. And that PIN must be "precision ground" to properly work. After market vendors make precision ground oversized pins for Contenders and H&Rs so smiths can fit them.

That is definitely a "WINGNUT" idea.



All of the above quote is still factually correct. Sleepy Joe economics, and Bubba Hack Wingnut ideas change nothing.

Pacrat

https://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/threads/item-relisted-fs-h-amp-r-topper-158-22-hornet.2219439/

Here is another one relisted because nobody would buy it at $300
You should get it sell the barrel for $400 and keep the rest of the parts for an even bigger profit margin!!!

Don't get upset because a shotgun doesn't fit the forum.

And tell me everything you know about hingepin headspace I've got 2 seconds.

[five.five-six]

Perhaps an AR barrel with a cricket style action.

[pacrat]

https://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/th...ornet.2219439/

So a guy on an obscure Georgia gun forum. Who is not willing to ship, And states up front that he isn't going to give a buyer a "Bill of Sale". Didn't sell a gun. Because nobody would buy from HIM.

Your point is?

Don't get upset because a shotgun doesn't fit the forum.

I see that you're still struggling with that reading comprehension difficulty.

Because I Clearly Stated;

Your prospective price point is way off the mark with reality. It could come kinda close to being feaseable as a ONE OFF DIY.

But don't stop there. To make it a "rifle". Cut barrel assy just forward of barrel breech area that contains the hinge. Ream/drill/bore/turn it to fit a turned down rifle barrel, with matching diameter with a few thou clearance. Silver solder the barrel into the breech. Still gotta mod the extractor also.

And tell me everything you know about hingepin headspace I've got 2 seconds.

Ouch! that really really hurt..................................... OK, not Really.
I could ask in a witty retort for you "To tell me all you know about "Wingnuts". But I'm already past 70 and don't know how many years I have left.

[pacrat]

OP;

Have you considered "RE-IMAGINING" some older tried and true designs with some new "marketable" innovations.

A couple that come to mind are the AR-7 platform. https://www.henryusa.com/rifles/u-s-survival-ar-7/ Takedown not folding I know, but proven design. With a beefed up tube receiver simplified into a "bolt action single shot" The weight of beefier receiver would be offset by losing the SEMI function. Couldn't use the threaded sleeve barrel attachment. Which works for 22lr but a NOGO for the 55K PSI 223.

But if you went to a straight grip stock. It could be drilled through so that barrel protruded out the receiver end. When it is packed

Another possibility, also not folding, but "collapsible". Is the "USAAF M4 Survival rifle". Also beefier receiver, to take the 12K psi increase between the 22 Hornet and the 223. and single shot, so lower would be much lighter/simpler. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M4_Survival_Rifle
More along the lines of the AR-5. Which is a bolt action 22 Hornet version of the AR-7. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ArmaLite_AR-5

If you want to explore this further. I suggest you check with the guys at http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi

They actually build real guns from chunks of metal. And are up to date on all aspects of that endeavor. From simple machining to CAD programming.

I haven't signed on in a couple of yrs. IIRC they were open forum, but got bombed by porn, and Nigerian Prince spam. And they started charging a ONE TIME sign up of $10 to register. But well worth the opportunity to pick their brains.

[LynnJr]

https://www.theoutdoorstrader.com/th...ornet.2219439/

So a guy on an obscure Georgia gun forum. Who is not willing to ship, And states up front that he isn't going to give a buyer a "Bill of Sale". Didn't sell a gun. Because nobody would buy from HIM.

Your point is?



I see that you're still struggling with that reading comprehension difficulty.

Because I Clearly Stated;







Ouch! that really really hurt..................................... OK, not Really.
I could ask in a witty retort for you "To tell me all you know about "Wingnuts". But I'm already past 70 and don't know how many years I have left.

The point is an old curmudgeon such as yourself pointing out barrels cost $400 or more could have bought that gun and made millions on it. You know you being the shrewd businessman you are and end all of gun pricing such that you are.
And of course nobody expected you to know anything about headspacing and hingepins because it was one of your more ridiculous posts.

[Imageview]

There are some deals out there on h&r's still, unfortunately less available to us because good deal usually means from an individual. Greybeard/reloaded forums are the ticket. I got a 243 handi rifle for about $250 a couple months ago on GunBroker, that's an unpopular caliber and was a good price. Since I have my sb2 receiver I'm now working on the higher pressure barrel selection.

Barrels range from $60 (common shotgun barrels) to $400ish range (more desirable and rare rifle calibers). Even finding some of the more desirable and rarer ones is a real challenge, at any price. I'm still looking for a 357 mag or max barrel to finish out my set.

Best bet if you want to make one takedown is to do the screw trick, maybe with a gasket in the forearm and an index mark for the screw to get consistent pressure from the forearm.

The design of the h&r was significantly simpler than what the op describes, and isn't viable to manufacture and sell due to cost to produce vs what people are willing to pay for them. Sad because they are so much fun and great tools.

The encores were built to much better standards, and don't have the same issues with fitment, but cost way more. Similarly they seem to have hit the wall with cost to produce vs what people are willing to pay. Production has stopped, the brand is being shopped, and no takers so far. No new receivers left in the supply chain, so now is the time to scoop up a used one if you are interested before that supply gets too low. Much better availability of aftermarket barrels though which is nice.

[pacrat]

And of course nobody expected you to know anything about headspacing and hingepins because it was one of your more ridiculous posts.

SERIOUSLY? That quote came from the same guy that said this.

The hinge pin can be replaced with a grade 8 bolt and a wingnut

Golly Gee Whilakers, I wish I knew the "WINGNUT TRICK" before going to the trouble of upgrading both my Contender, and H&R SB2 bull barrel 223, with oversized Pins.

[five.five-six]

You two should get a room.

The sexual tension is so thick you could cut it with a knife.

[pacrat]

You two should get a room.

The sexual tension is so thick you could cut it with a knife.

Mentioning "knife" in rifle forum is OT. And nobody wants to be subjected to a "HOW TO REPLACE YOUR FOLDERS HINGE PIN WITH A SCREW AND WINGNUT POST".

[Big Chudungus]

OP;

Have you considered "RE-IMAGINING" some older tried and true designs with some new "marketable" innovations.

A couple that come to mind are the AR-7 platform.

Thats sorta what I'm trying to do, but I'm thinking a rim-fire, rimmed cartridge action wont be much help for a center fire with indent such as 233,308 or any non-Soviet round.

My first instinct would build an AR action with barrel, etc, then disable the gas system and cut away whatever it takes to add a "manual override", then cutaway all the other extra bits like magwell, then stream-line everything but add provision for simplified manually cocked trigger, and connections for the frame to attach.

Then send those Blueprints to a guy who already makes Lowers, and tell him to insert a couple of stamped steel bars in the mold, then only fill the casting mold 1/4 full and tilt it 87 degress forward or something.

[pacrat]

Thats sorta what I'm trying to do, but I'm thinking a rim-fire, rimmed cartridge action wont be much help for a center fire with indent such as 233,308 or any non-Soviet round.

None of your stated criteria cartridges are rim-fire.

The plus of a rimless cartridge like 223/308. Is that it feeds smoothly from a mag.

On a single shot action that's irrelevant. Extractor for rimless is a bit tougher to engineer for reliability. Because it must "SNAP into" the recessed extractor groove.

But the rimmed extractor is flush with breech and easier to make work. It can be fitted to its recess slot in barrel. Then cut same time chamber is cut in one operation.

Look at an H&R or Contender breech. Both are made in rimmed, and rimless.
Only difference is extractor. And both work flawlessly.

On a bolt gun single shot, both rimmed and rimless extractors, "snap" into place. Unless box mag fed repeaters. In which the case "rises" up out of mag with extractor in front of rim, or in groove.

A good friend and early mentor of mine, named Dick Donoho. Made good money, taking old, at the time. $15 mil-surp Martini-Henry rifles. Both the Cadet and full size versions, into tack driving works of art, varmint rifles using rimmed and rimless cartridges.

I assure you he knew his stuff. When he got fed up dealing with ignorant customers, after 2 retail gun shop, and smithing ventures. Roy Weatherby hired him as his head gunsmith. Before they moved up north.

[Imageview]

I own a fair number of guns that do basically what you want, just not with the ar barrel compatibility. Handi rifles and a pardner, a savage 24, a marrocchi 612. Every design I own has been stopped and/or the company went out of business. Savage still makes a version of the 24, but Rimfire and small gauge only. Marrocchi made a go of it (probably relying more on the ability to use the design as a pure shotgun) until Beretta pulled their licence, and only by charging a premium. H&r/nef survived several bankruptcies and sales to larger firearm companies cranking out inexpensive models until Remington decided it wasn't worth their time.

Of the ones I don't own, Chiappa makes something similar but cut the center fires I think. Smith and Wesson stopped making encores. Baikal still probably makes something along these lines, just can't import them. Henry is the last man standing, but doesn't make a design that's easy to take down and their guns are definitely not cheap.

So while I'm not super knowledgeable about manufacturing, I can read the room when it comes to business actions. Major companies are moving away from this market segment, and can't make a business work, or if they can the opportunity cost is still too high.

When it comes to your target consumers you basically have 1) hunters who want something cheap, 2) survivalist types, and 3) people who like odd guns like me. Group one is shrinking and owned by guns like the Savage axis line now, and undercutting those prices would need to leverage massive scale. Group 2 is even smaller, and you're again competing for their firearm budgets against already established players in that space with no frills ARs coming in real cheap these days and basically filling mostly the same role better. Group 3 is insignificant, and the low price point actually hurts you because this group is willing to spend more but have more specific demands (what do you mean you don't offer factory barrels in 218 bee?!?!).