Pre-64 model 70 vs current Supergrade

[icallshotgun88]

[Paradiddle]

There are several reasons why the Pre 64 is considered the high water mark of hunting rifles, and several of those reasons are valid, but some are more nostalgic then others.

Pre 64 Model 70s are built on a mauser style action with what is called controlled round feeding and extraction (CRF). The large extractor claw actually grabs the cartridge and holds it firmly onto the bolt face through both feeding and extraction. Many hunters, especially those that hunt dangerous game, feel that this type of system is a necessity when compared to a push feed system (like the Remington 700 used) because it is typically a more reliable type of system (it can feed with the rifle held upside down - whereas a push feed rifle cannot).

In 1965 Winchester went to a push feed action in the model 70. This was seen by rifle loonies as heresy. They also got away from the 3 position wing safety that the Pre 64 had.

Quality began to suffer in the post 64 rifles because they weren't hand built like the pre 64 rifles were.

NOW - Winchester went back to the controlled feed action in 1992 and called it the Classic. They discontinued the push feed Model 70 sometime in the early 2000's and now make only CRF rifles.

The pre 64 rifles have poor gas management and if you are a handloader or shooting hot rounds caution should be used. The current rifles are much better at handling a case failure.

The Model 70 trigger is considered the best hunting trigger ever made - it's open, can be tuned, and runs in all kinds of weather. Sealed triggers can potentially be an issue in very cold temps or if the rifle gets dropped in mud.

I have owned several pre 64 and they have all been accurate, and very smooth when it comes to feeding and firing (old rifles are typically much smoother as they've been used).

I hunted elk a few years ago using a new model 70 in 7x57. It was VERY accurate and worked great in the field - the only mod I did was dropping it into a McMillian stock and putting a good scope on it.

The Pre-64s all had iron sights as well - the new ones do not come with irons. The comb on the non-featherweight Pre-64 stocks can be low when it comes to shooting with a scope - this can create the feel of heavier recoil as you are getting your face slapped by the stock. This can be resolved by buying a featherweight rifle or putting the rifle into a newer synthetic stock. NOTE that a pre-64 will NOT fit into a new model 70 stock - the spacing of the lug and bottom metal bolts are different.

Also all Pre-64 are built on the same action length regardless of caliber. The new ones are built in long action and short action - with short action weighing less and having a shorter bolt throw.

The Model 70 is not the lightest rifle either - my wood stocked Pre 64s Model 70's weigh 8.5 pounds scoped with a light Leupold in Talley rings. One of mine rides in a McMillian Hunters Edge stock and that one weights a few ounces less then 8 pounds. IMO anything around 8-9 pounds that balances well is about right for most hunts.

The standard barrel length on a Pre-64 is 24" and the Featherweight is 22". I think all the new ones come with 22" tubes now.

If I went sheep hunting in Colorado I may want a sub 7 pound rifle to carry all day - LOL

The BRAND new model 70's are no longer made in the US - I'm not sure how their quality is, but the last run of made in the USA rifles are outstanding.

The Model 70 is a rifle geeks rifle. It has a rich history and is an elegant and classy rifle. The Supergrade is their flagship and not a rifle I would personally want to take out in the field as it's SUPER nice. Now - I would, and have taken pre-64 rifles into the field as a bump or bruise on that doesn't give me heartburn.

The only other "issue" with the pre-64 is that you only run into the common calibers of 30-06 and .270 if you want to get one in the $1000 price range. Once you start lusting after the less commonly produced calibers the price goes up.

Hope that helps. Get one and enjoy it! They are addicting.

[lewdogg21]

Hey paraliddle - you seem extremely knowledgeable about these. I won a "pre-64" new rifle at a SCI dinner in roughly 1997 in 338 win mag. Wood stock, stainless finish. What would you say the value is?

EDIT: Approx 10 rounds through it from one bench session. I had to send it back in after the safety broke off the bolt in like 2010 which ironically was before I'd even shot it. I got it back and used it 1x.

[Russ661]

I fell in love with the look of the new Supergrade in the maple stock so I bought one in .308 Winchester caliber. It was assembled in Portugal but I believe the parts were made in the US. Overall the craftsmanship is superb. I replaced the trigger weight spring (~$6.50) and now the trigger, which wasn't bad stock, breaks at a crisp 3 pounds with hardly any creep or over travel. It is very close to being as good as the Trigger Tech Primary trigger I have in another rifle. The bluing is even and the polished metalwork is gorgeous. The action is so smooth it makes me want to throw rocks at my high $$ custom build with a Remmie 700 action! Just no comparison.

http://www.winchesterguns.com/content/dam/winchester-repeating-arms/products/rifles/model-70/super-grade-maple/Model-70-Super-Grade-Maple-535218-3234hr.jpg/_jcr_content/renditions/original.img.jpg

On the down side, this thing has so much free bore that even seating bullets out as long as the magazine will accept there is still over .3 jump to the lands. I have had one heck of a time getting it to shoot a respectable group.

[Paradiddle]

Hey paraliddle - you seem extremely knowledgeable about these. I won a "pre-64" new rifle at a SCI dinner in roughly 1997 in 338 win mag. Wood stock, stainless finish. What would you say the value is?

EDIT: Approx 10 rounds through it from one bench session. I had to send it back in after the safety broke off the bolt in like 2010 which ironically was before I'd even shot it. I got it back and used it 1x.

I'm more in tune with the older stuff, but I would say a 1997 Classic in stainless is probably worth a $1000 give or take. Does it have an optic on it?

You'll never sell it on here, as everyone is cheap, but take it to either a more hunting orientated forum or to GB and give it a whirl.

[sigstroker]

I had a push feed Featherweight that I really liked (it was stolen by some bastid). I could swear it had a 3 position safety. I bought it new circa 1987. I always thought the "pre-64" noise was just old curmudgeon blather. 99%+ of owners will never hunt dangerous game with their Model 70's, especially with .308's and .243's, etc. The push feeds are also generally smoother because there's just a relatively simple round bolt.

[elk hunter]

I'm no expert on anything but I have a couple of the last of the Mod. 70's that were made in the North Carolina plant, both are excellent rifles. One is a standard grade in 30-06 and the other is consigned to a store for sale and is a Super Grade light weight in 7X57 Mauser, if I didn't have another 7X57 and was younger I would keep the Mod.70 and the other 7X57. The elk in my avatar was killed with the 30-06 so it has a memory to it and that's why I kept that one. The Mod.70 Winchester in my opinion is still "The Rifleman's Rifle". Get one and enjoy it. The old push feed Mod.70 is still a darn good rifle to.

[Fjold]

The pre-64 model 70s are great rifles and earned their reputation as "The Rifleman's Rifle". Their value and reputation went through the roof when Winchester changed to the push feed model in 1964.

The new Classics have the advantage of much better steel quality due to the computer controlled alloying of the modern foundries, the change to the anti-bind bolt, better gas handling and the tighter tolerances achieved by the CNC lathes and mills during manufacturing.

50 years ago a minute of angle rifle was considered the best of the best and highly prized by its owner. Now, minute of angle is considered acceptable.

[sigstroker]

I did get to fondle one of the new maple Supergrades about a month ago. Cabela's had them on sale for <$1300. I will say one thing - you couldn't touch any rifle with that quality of wood and metal finish in the '80's for anywhere near that kind of money, never mind inflation. I almost wanted to buy one as a piece of art.

[saudadeii]

I have a '61 Featherweight in 30.06. I also have a '59 M94 in 30-30. Both my father's deer guns. I hope to pass them to my sons.

[Ramsh00ter]

[Spyder]

I've got a Westerner in 243 that Iove, though a few years back it started to shoot horrendously bad and I don't know why. Put it in the safe as a "next week" project and forgot about it.
I killed my first deer with it, so it's a special one.

[sakosf]

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/winchester-70-264-win-mag-w9735/

[EMP3]

Good Morning Paradiddle,

Thanks so much for your tutorial. It was excellent.

I have a copy of a limited run stainless/walnut Featherweight chambered for .308 Win. I bought it some 25+ years ago. It was made in the USA. I believe it was made by USRAC. It has CRF. I bought it because I was tired of carrying a 10+ pound Sako up-and-down high ridges of the Rockies. For the $$$ I paid, it was good value. But I just can't take a shine to stainless. I'm old school: blued steel & wood.

I darn near bought a Pre-64 Model 70 chambered for .270 Win. It was in good condition. That rifle must have weighed 10+ pounds, too heavy for altitude hunting. I passed.

There's a lot to be said for artisans of old who hand fitted parts to create beautiful rifles. I do hold such artisans in high esteem. But all humans are fallible. We'll all make mistakes, especially when time diminishes our sense of sight.

I can and do appreciate craftsmen of the Golden Era of big game hunting. However, no human being can compete with computer aided design and manufacturing. My guess is the CAD & CAM have enabled very inexpensive rifles to shoot tiny groups that were not very common of Golden Era rifles. Manufacturing of everything has been digitally enhanced.

I haven't lost my old school loyalty to blued steel and wood. But I do comprehend the tremendous benefits of CAD & CAM.

BTW, I haven't hunted with my Featherweight in at least a decade. I do have complete confidence in its ability to kill all North American big game. It's that stainless thing. I have a very close friend who wants it. If I do sell it, I'll take what I've paid for it, Leupold Vari-X III included. I've been told that I could get a lot more for it because it's a copy of a limited run & made in the USA. But he's a very close friend. If I do sell it, he'll get it for my cost, which, when factoring in inflation, he'll be getting a fantastic deal on a well made rifle.

[EMP3]

http://www.collectorsfirearms.com/wi...win-mag-w9735/

Great Website. Thanks.

I view guns as investments. However, I have to consider real rate of return, which subtracts inflation from market value.

If that Pre-64 Model 70 .264 Win Mag has an asking price of $2450, that means it was valued at approx $300 in 1960.

Inflation is a killer of speculative investments.