Marlin 1894 and PPU 240gr JHP Hate Each Other

[jagrjones]

First lever gun. First 44 magnum. Not first firearm by any means. Average shooter, can hit an 8 inch plate 50% of the time offhand at 100 yards with other rifles. Used to an ar-15 shooting minute of baseball, mini-14 shooting minute of beach ball.

My 1894 shoots minute of hippopotamus with PPU 240gr JHP from a rest on a concrete bench. We are talking like a 3ft pattern at 50 yards. I bought a box of Fiocci 230gr SP from the range office and was able to get much better accuracy. Is there something about lever action rifles with strong recoil that I'm missing or does my rifle just hate PPU ammo?

[orangeusa]

Interested to hear the solution, I bought one recently...

.

[blubullett]

I have never had an issue with PPU in any calibers. And my Rossi 44 mag lever loves it. Hits a 10" gong every time if I pay attention.

[Oceanbob]

Is your Marlin Micro-Groove or Ballard Rifling?

It's an ammo issue. 44 mag likes .429 diameter bullets for pistols.
.430 or .431for Rifles. Under that diameter bullets can't SPIN enough to stabilize and will KEYHOLE with horrible accuracy.

How old is your 1894? Also be sure and clean the barrel very good because
Fowling between the lands also prevent bullet spin and accuracy suffers.

Be well
Bob

Edit:

Found that PPU is a bit undersize. .4285 ...

PRVI PARTIZAN BULLET 44cal (.4285) 180gr FPJ 100/BAG

Something to consider.

[jagrjones]

Its a new rifle, ballard rifling. I pulled and measured the PRVI bullets. Seemed to measure .428 to .429. Definitely not .430 or .431

[Ki6vsm]

Yep. As Oceanbob says, it's an ammo issue. You need to shoot fatter bullets. Marlin barrels run slightly big for some reason. Try some ammo using Hornady bullets. They run .430". And also try Magtech.

FWIW, in my 1894 I've found that Speer and Remington jacketed bullets just don't group tight after trying several powders and loads. They are both .429". So Hornady and Magtech are all I use.

[Win231]

I have an older Marlin 44. With handloads using Berry's Plated or any cast bullet or factory ammo, it groups into under an inch at 50 yds.

Then I found a batch of "XTreme" Plated bullets on sale & got horrible accuracy - wouldn't keep all shots on a 9.5 x 11 paper at 25 yds. I never really knew what the problem was with those bullets; I contacted the company & they sent me a refund. Maybe they were undersized.

[hogbody74]

Marlin 44

Try different ammo mine shoots minute of rabbit at 100 to 125 yards. hogbody

[WMG]

Strong recoil?
Anyhow try different bullets.
That's the common solution to loads that don't shoot well in your gun.
I use mostly hardcasts in mine with ballard rifling and while PPU has given me good results in other firearms , mostly mil-surps ..... I have seen some that has given bad accuracy.
dang things wouldn't shoot under 4 inches at 100yds in the wifes 243 , not even with me behind the wheel.

[W.R.Buchanan]

This gun is the prefect reason for you to start Reloading and Casting your own Boolits.

SAAMI Spec for .44 Magnum Pistol barrels is .429+/- .002

The spec for Rifle Barrels is .431+/- .002... The gun should shoot with .431 jacketed bullets which you aren't going to find. They are normally sized.429 to be used in pistols.

For the Rifle you aren't going to find any Jacketed bullets that will shoot well so you are forced into cast boolits. I ran into this exact same thing when I got my 1894 CB 24" in 2005 when the factory ammo I shot all key holed at 50 ft! Not what I was looking for at all !!!!

However I had been loading .44 Mag and Special for along time for my Revolvers so it was just a matter of ordering some 250 gr WFN's from Beartooth Bullets sized .432, and loading them up.

I used the same loads as my Revolver, 23 gr of H110 powder and those boolits yielded 1" groups at 50 yards with stock open sights. Bingo!

If you aren't reloading already this would be the time to start. A Lee Classic Loader in .44 mag will cost you all of $35 and a plastic mallet another $5 at HF. Throw in a few more niceties and you're in business for well under $100.

Lee also makes simple boolit casting tools like molds and melting pots. I started with those tools and still have them since 1976.

I loaded .44's for many years using one of those tools, and they are a good way to get into the Hobby. Plus the satisfaction you get from hitting a target with ammo you made in your own home is well worth the price of admission.

http://leeprecision.com/lee-loader-44-mag.html Buy Lee stuff from Titan Reloading for best prices. http://www.titanreloading.com/

http://www.beartoothbullets.com/index.htm

Randy.

[WMG]

Not real sure he won't find any.
I'm on my 2nd Marlin and have a NEF handi with a 44mag barrel.
I've mainly used older out of business Bulls-X hard cast normally in 240gr in either a RNFP for the Marlins and a SWC for the NEF and have been using Meister hard casts as of late ... all .429's
In jacketed rds , the 240 XTP is what I normally use in any of the rifles.. but have used others as light as the silvertips 210's from Winchester ...."if memory serves I think they were 210's"....with just about all minus those silvertips my rifles love them.
He says the Fiocci 230gr SP gave MUCH better accuracy "whatever that may be" ....... so the problem is most likely the PPU's which isn't the greatest surprise to ever come out of the ammo world........... DESPITE numerous selections of PPU that I use and am happy with , there Q.C seems to be lacking at times...............

[Ki6vsm]

I wouldn't make the generalization that "Marlin 44s don't shoot well with jacketed bullets". As I'd mentioned above, my (ca. 2002) Marlin shoots the 240 grn Hornady XTP very well. These are not .429" bullets; they're .430". With 22.7 grn of H110 behind them I get about 1.5 MOA. Not too bad I'd say.

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/224132/hornady-xtp-bullets-44-caliber-430-diameter-240-grain-jacketed-hollow-point-box-of-100

In the reviews you'll see a lot of praise coming from Marlin owners.

Same with 240 grn Magtech. They're listed as only .429" but the ones I've purchased measure out to .430". They shoot pretty well with Blue Dot. 14-15 grn. And don't kick as hard as rounds loaded with H110.

But agreeing with what Mr Buchanan said, I've heard that great accuracy can be achieved with cast bullets. Personally I'm still waiting to try it out. In prep for that, I have some Dardas 200 grn bullets in .431" and .432". I'm curious to see how those will shoot.

.

[WMG]

^^^^ Have you ever got total broad side penetration on a deer with the 240 XTP?
Mine refused to exit regardless of handgun or rifle ...... I discovered the 240XTP as sold for .50 cal muzzle loaders with the use of a sabot ...had a thicker jacket ............ I have been wondering if they will exit but have not tried as of yet.

[jagrjones]

UPDATE!

Took 6 types of ammo to the range today. Set up paper at 50 yards and shot 5 shot groups using iron sights.

Fiocci 240gr SP = Shot fine
Winchester 240gr SP = Shot fine
American Eagle 240gr JHP = Shot fine
Sellier and Bellot 240gr SP = Shot fine
Magtech 240gr SP = Shot Fine
PPU 240gr JHP = SHOT MINUTE OF BUFFALO

5 brands were grouping well while the PPU only hit paper on 3 out of 5 shots and shot way low (was aiming at the top target). Seems weird that 5 brands would work fine and 1 would be so terrible. Next step is to contact PPU and see what they say.

[Ki6vsm]

^^^^ Have you ever got total broad side penetration on a deer with the 240 XTP?
Mine refused to exit regardless of handgun or rifle ...... I discovered the 240XTP as sold for .50 cal muzzle loaders with the use of a sabot ...had a thicker jacket ............ I have been wondering if they will exit but have not tried as of yet.

Sorry, I confess that I don't hunt. I know it seems wasteful to use these nice hollow points just as target bullets. But darn, they do fly straight.

Here's a diagram I made from a shooting session about 10-12 years ago. Admittedly my best group of that day. FYI, I was shooting from a bench off of sand bags and my Marlin had a little 2.5x Weaver scope on it.

I also noticed that the groups were tighter toward the minimum loadings of H110. (Max load being 24.0 gr per my data book.) No idea what the velocities are. I never chrono'd them.