Rem 700 .308 Range trip and issues

[Hateca]

Like others have said the BDL spring is weak, pull it out, and stretch it a bit. Common Remington issue.

Contrary to what other say the extractor is very robust, failure of the extractor is usually contributed to owner error. The extractor on the non magnums is a floating extractor and has some spring to it. If it gets crap behind it will stick. Try scrubbing the bolt face, flush it with some brake cleaner, and compressed air.

I would not shoot 762x51 in your .308. Also I would not recommend shooting any 762x51 or ".308" that wasn't totally made in the USA with US components, and even then military spec brass can be problematic. Foreign ammo can be and is usually hot, over pressured. This stuff is made for gas operated weapons and machine guns and the quality control is spotty. If you were sticking rounds in a factory rifle you would be hating life if this was a match chamber.

The shorter the barrel the more unforgiving the weapon will be. It will jump and recoil more then a longer barrel. If the shooter doesn't do everything correctly and has a proper shooting position every time the groups will suffer. This is one reason guys say a muzzle brake makes their rifle more accurate. The brake had nothing to do with making the rifle more accurate the brake masked poor shooting technique and made the shooter more comfortable so the shooter shot better.

[JMP]

Just my opinion as everyone has given sound answers.

1. Just ditch the internal mag complete, get a metal bottom properly installed that takes detachable magazines.

2. Could be the extractor. New extractors are about $10 each. If you take your rifle to a gunsmith, you may as well have him pop in and set a new extractor (bring with you the brass you plan on using), otherwise, you can do it yourself. A question, when you popped out the last round with the rod, is there a mark on the base of the case? This would be caused by an ejector not fit well for your brass.

3. As everyone said, you don't have one zero except for the actual ammo load you intend to shoot. You want to shoot the smallest group, then just adjustment your scope to zero with this ammo.

4. With this rifle, I'd recommend a new trigger and have a muzzle brake installed. The muzzle brake should make a 308 in your configuration much nicer to shoot and it will be apparent when you shoot past 100 yards as you will want to spot your impacts.

[Kolo589]

As others have been mentioning, don't care about where on the target your rounds impact, care about the group they make on the target. Once you find ammo that groups to your liking adjust your scope to zero for that ammo. Zero your scope at whatever range you like.

Little things can affect your zero. Different lots of the same 175 grain ammo could potentially have a different zero, 175 grain ammo from two different manufacturers will likely have a different zero, etc.

You're sure the extractor isn't gummed up and the edges are sharp (at least not rounded or gouged or chipped)?

Noted about group size over location.

When I got home and checked the extractor did have a bit of crud underneath it which I cleaned out. As far as the edges, they look good and there was nothing blatantly obvious, but I don't really have the experience with the rifle to know if something was marginal and needed to be replaced or not.

Yup...check the extractor. Could be grime in there or could even be damaged.

My friend was cycling my custom bolt action and he was gingerly working the bolt, causing the rounds to bind a little. He made a comment that it wasn't as smooth as he thought. I told him to grow a pair and work the bolt aggressively. After he did that, the feeding felt like butter, and he looked tacticool doing it

Make sure to use a rear bag...

I'll be the first to say it...to get the most potential out of the gun and if you intend on shooting it often, the way to go is handloading. Some 175s or 168s & IMR4064, Varget or RE-15 and you will find a good load that should shoot consistent MOA if not 3/4 MOA groups at 100 yards.

I was using a rear bag for this session, it made getting on target and making minor adjustments pretty easy.

I also understand that handloading is the way to go, and I will down the road. Right now it's just a matter of practice (and lack of space to set up reloading equipment).

Nice looking rifle.

For #1, try bending the mag spring a little. When I bought mine I had the same issue. Then found some guys found out if you bent the mag spring just slightly to adjust the pressure of the spring force it makes it more reliable. Did this a few years back and haven't experienced it since.

As for #2 it could be a sticky chamber. Just shoot about 100 rounds and if it continues worry. Or weak extractor. Usually it fixes it self by then cause its a rough chamber.

And in before the Remington haters make their showing.

I'll try adjusting the spring to see if I can get the feed more reliable.

With the newly cleaned extractor, hopefully it'll help a bit. Plus most guns seem to like a break in period for some reason or another. I'll get more rounds down range and hopefully it'll work itself out.

Like others have said the BDL spring is weak, pull it out, and stretch it a bit. Common Remington issue.

Contrary to what other say the extractor is very robust, failure of the extractor is usually contributed to owner error. The extractor on the non magnums is a floating extractor and has some spring to it. If it gets crap behind it will stick. Try scrubbing the bolt face, flush it with some brake cleaner, and compressed air.

I would not shoot 762x51 in your .308. Also I would not recommend shooting any 762x51 or ".308" that wasn't totally made in the USA with US components, and even then military spec brass can be problematic. Foreign ammo can be and is usually hot, over pressured. This stuff is made for gas operated weapons and machine guns and the quality control is spotty. If you were sticking rounds in a factory rifle you would be hating life if this was a match chamber.

The shorter the barrel the more unforgiving the weapon will be. It will jump and recoil more then a longer barrel. If the shooter doesn't do everything correctly and has a proper shooting position every time the groups will suffer. This is one reason guys say a muzzle brake makes their rifle more accurate. The brake had nothing to do with making the rifle more accurate the brake masked poor shooting technique and made the shooter more comfortable so the shooter shot better.

Is the reason for not using 7.62x51 in the rifle just due to machine gun tolerances in 147gr ammo? I was under the impression that match grade ammo (which I was shooting) wouldn't be an issue. HSM is a US company (based in Montana) using US components from what I understand. Would you recommend not using Lake City XM118LR 175gr rounds?

I'd prefer not to use a muzzle break as a crutch, even if it would improve my shooting. Practice behind the trigger should work those groups smaller.

Just my opinion as everyone has given sound answers.

1. Just ditch the internal mag complete, get a metal bottom properly installed that takes detachable magazines.

2. Could be the extractor. New extractors are about $10 each. If you take your rifle to a gunsmith, you may as well have him pop in and set a new extractor (bring with you the brass you plan on using), otherwise, you can do it yourself. A question, when you popped out the last round with the rod, is there a mark on the base of the case? This would be caused by an ejector not fit well for your brass.

3. As everyone said, you don't have one zero except for the actual ammo load you intend to shoot. You want to shoot the smallest group, then just adjustment your scope to zero with this ammo.

4. With this rifle, I'd recommend a new trigger and have a muzzle brake installed. The muzzle brake should make a 308 in your configuration much nicer to shoot and it will be apparent when you shoot past 100 yards as you will want to spot your impacts.

1. I was looking in to that last night. I'll try working the spring in the internal box magazine first and perhaps down the road switch to a DBM setup.

2. I looked at the round I popped out with the rod and there was a very small mar on the edge of the round, but I couldn't tell whether that was from the extractor or not. I most likely just won't shoot that particular brand anymore.

3. Noted.

4. I did have a Timney 510 installed to replace the standard Rem XMarkPro that had the recall. The barrel is threaded and capped so I could add a muzzle brake pretty easily, however like I said above, I don't really want to start using a brake as a crutch... and if I ever move out of CA, I'll definitely get a can to go on the end of this thing.

[Jarhead]

You can use U.S. 7.62MM but unless it's M118 / M852 it's no way as accurate as Commercial Match ( Federal Gold Medal, Black Hills Match ) but Reloads still the best

http://www.snipercentral.com/history-m118-ammunition/

[Hateca]

Is the reason for not using 7.62x51 in the rifle just due to machine gun tolerances in 147gr ammo? I was under the impression that match grade ammo (which I was shooting) wouldn't be an issue. HSM is a US company (based in Montana) using US components from what I understand. Would you recommend not using Lake City XM118LR 175gr rounds?

I'd prefer not to use a muzzle break as a crutch, even if it would improve my shooting. Practice behind the trigger should work those groups smaller.

Current US made, for the US military, 762x51 is made utilizes a commercial made case that is on line with consumer available match ammo such as FGMM and is designed to work with US fielded bolt guns. Older 762x51 uses a military grade case that is thicker and heavier then commercial brass and they were trying to make it work with both gas and bolt guns and were not too successful.

The heavier brass needs to be more robust to survive gas guns and machine guns. This brass will expand and not relax enough after firing to allow easy extraction. This can be a real problem if this rifle is chambered with a true 308 match chamber, not so much with a loose as a goose factory chamber.

Get some FGMM or Black Hills. If this ammo feeds and extracts fired cases without sticking then you will have answered the question of why that 762 ammo is sticking. They say they are using US made components but are they assembling the round correctly? If fired case are sticking their is a problem, and it's not the rifle.

Based on your symptoms sticking fired cases in the chamber I question the ammo you are using. If you want to get baseline accuracy shoot 168 or 175 FGMM or Black Hills. If you want to use 762 be sure it's modern US made for US military that was designed to work with US bolt guns.

If you try and use 762 ammo and it feeds and extracts and shows no pressure signs then by all means use it but if its hard to chamber or extract the fired cases then look elsewhere for a different ammo brand because there is an issue with the ammo.

[Kolo589]

Current US made, for the US military, 762x51 is made utilizes a commercial made case that is on line with consumer available match ammo such as FGMM and is designed to work with US fielded bolt guns. Older 762x51 uses a military grade case that is thicker and heavier then commercial brass and they were trying to make it work with both gas and bolt guns and were not too successful.

The heavier brass needs to be more robust to survive gas guns and machine guns. This brass will expand and not relax enough after firing to allow easy extraction. This can be a real problem if this rifle is chambered with a true 308 match chamber, not so much with a loose as a goose factory chamber.

Get some FGMM or Black Hills. If this ammo feeds and extracts fired cases without sticking then you will have answered the question of why that 762 ammo is sticking. They say they are using US made components but are they assembling the round correctly? If fired case are sticking their is a problem, and it's not the rifle.

Based on your symptoms sticking fired cases in the chamber I question the ammo you are using. If you want to get baseline accuracy shoot 168 or 175 FGMM or Black Hills. If you want to use 762 be sure it's modern US made for US military that was designed to work with US bolt guns.

If you try and use 762 ammo and it feeds and extracts and shows no pressure signs then by all means use it but if its hard to chamber or extract the fired cases then look elsewhere for a different ammo brand because there is an issue with the ammo.

Interesting. How recent is "current made"? The case that got stuck had a headstamp of FC 12, so Federal Brass 2012 if I decoded it correctly. The case that got stuck was also PNW Arms rather than HSM, although they were both 175gr using Sierra Match King bullets. The HSM has a headstamp of FC 11, and seemed to work fine and both have a similar FPS out the barrel (with the HSM being slightly higher at 2600 vs 2555) so while it's good information to know, I don't think that was the particular issue this time around.

I probably will pick up some FGMM since it's basically the gold standard for production match ammo. I'll give it a shot (pardon the pun) to see how it groups.

Thanks for the reply.

[Shakey]

I would not shoot 762x51 in your .308. Also I would not recommend shooting any 762x51 or ".308" that wasn't totally made in the USA with US components, and even then military spec brass can be problematic. Foreign ammo can be and is usually hot, over pressured. This stuff is made for gas operated weapons and machine guns and the quality control is spotty. If you were sticking rounds in a factory rifle you would be hating life if this was a match chamber.

That's silly advice all the way around. The main differences between NATO and SAMMI specs are (1) SAMMI ammunition has a much higher pressure limit* (62k psi vs. 50kpsi) and NATO gun chambers can have much longer headspace (1.6405 vs. 1.6340). If there was going to be an issue it would be case head separation caused by a short, high pressure SAMMI cartridge in a long NATO chamber. The accuracy of military 7.62 might not be good, but it's not unsafe to shoot in a 308. I mean, sure, you should probably stay away from that deal on Malaysian 1960s surplus 7.62, but that's not because it's NATO spec.

US components? The gold-standard 308 brass comes from Europe, the best 308 powder comes from Australia, one of the best primers comes from Russia, and some of the best bullets are also from Europe. Prvi Partizan makes some decent match ammo from Serbia.



*This is only sorta true because the pressure is measured at different places so the two numbers are not directly comparable.

[ar15barrels]

The main differences between NATO and SAMMI specs are (1) SAMMI ammunition has a much higher pressure limit* (62k psi vs. 50kpsi) and NATO gun chambers can have much longer headspace (1.6405 vs. 1.6340).

Your numbers are way off.
The difference between 308 and 7.62x51 headspace (shoulder length) specs is 0.002"

308 minimum 1.630
308 no-go 1.634
308 maximum 1.638

Commercial guns are generally made to fall within the minumum and no-go gauge dimensions when NEW, but it is acceptable for used guns to exceed the no-go dimension.
That's why the maximum or "field reject" dimension exists.

7.62x51 minimum 1.632
7.62x51 maximum 1.640

The military tends to not bother with a "no go" gauge so they just use minimum and maximum.
This allows more room for mixing parts from multiple suppliers and having them go together and function within their acceptable range.

Notice that a new 308 or 7.62x51 gun whose shoulder length was 1.632" to 1.633" is acceptable for BOTH standards.

[JMP]

1. I was looking in to that last night. I'll try working the spring in the internal box magazine first and perhaps down the road switch to a DBM setup.

2. I looked at the round I popped out with the rod and there was a very small mar on the edge of the round, but I couldn't tell whether that was from the extractor or not. I most likely just won't shoot that particular brand anymore.

3. Noted.

4. I did have a Timney 510 installed to replace the standard Rem XMarkPro that had the recall. The barrel is threaded and capped so I could add a muzzle brake pretty easily, however like I said above, I don't really want to start using a brake as a crutch... and if I ever move out of CA, I'll definitely get a can to go on the end of this thing.

Very good. The small mar is very likely to be a contact mark with the extractor. The thing about the R700 extractors is that they are a cheap flimsy little $10 piece of disposal metal that pop in and out. The best thing about the R700 extractors is that they are a cheap flimsy little $10 piece of disposable metal so that you can best shape it to optimize your brass. Once it is in, it'll stay in and work until you take it out. At the point, you need a new one.

The one thing I'd disagree with you on is that a muzzle break is a "crutch". It really depends from rifle to rifle. Since yours looks to be on the small size in terms of length and weight, it may be helpful. It is not a crutch if it enables you to get in more shooting and feel better. With or without the muzzle brake, once zero'd, your results should be IDENTICAL on paper at 100 yards. In short action rifles, mostly, the muzzle brake is control the lift of the barrel after your short so that you can see the hit. It isn't because the recoil is hard to manage as it isn't an issue with a 308. If you have a heavy 6mm and a 30" barrel, you may not need a muzzle brake at all. If you have a Lapua Magnum, then you definitely need a muzzle brake. 308 is in the middle where you can go either way. I'd think a muzzle brake would make things easier to learn on for the sake of spotting your hits. On paper, it doesn't matter either way as you can see your spot. That's why I use high magnification for paper, but low magnification with a better FOV if I need to watch for splashes.

[Shakey]

That's what I get for getting my numbers from headspace gauges. Looks like we were both wrong on the 308, the official SAMMI print shows the headspace as 1.630 MIN and 1.640 MAX. Couldn't find the actual numbers for 7.62, anybody have a copy of STANAG 2310 lying around?

[ar15barrels]

That's what I get for getting my numbers from headspace gauges. Looks like we were both wrong on the 308, the official SAMMI print shows the headspace as 1.630 MIN and 1.640 MAX. Couldn't find the actual numbers for 7.62, anybody have a copy of STANAG 2310 lying around?

Saami specs are different from nato specs which are different from US military specs as well as CIP specs as well as headspace gauge maker specs as well as gunmaker specs.
Use whoever's specs you like...
The more important thing is understanding what's going on and WHY the specs even matter.

[Kolo589]

Very good. The small mar is very likely to be a contact mark with the extractor. The thing about the R700 extractors is that they are a cheap flimsy little $10 piece of disposal metal that pop in and out. The best thing about the R700 extractors is that they are a cheap flimsy little $10 piece of disposable metal so that you can best shape it to optimize your brass. Once it is in, it'll stay in and work until you take it out. At the point, you need a new one.

The one thing I'd disagree with you on is that a muzzle break is a "crutch". It really depends from rifle to rifle. Since yours looks to be on the small size in terms of length and weight, it may be helpful. It is not a crutch if it enables you to get in more shooting and feel better. With or without the muzzle brake, once zero'd, your results should be IDENTICAL on paper at 100 yards. In short action rifles, mostly, the muzzle brake is control the lift of the barrel after your short so that you can see the hit. It isn't because the recoil is hard to manage as it isn't an issue with a 308. If you have a heavy 6mm and a 30" barrel, you may not need a muzzle brake at all. If you have a Lapua Magnum, then you definitely need a muzzle brake. 308 is in the middle where you can go either way. I'd think a muzzle brake would make things easier to learn on for the sake of spotting your hits. On paper, it doesn't matter either way as you can see your spot. That's why I use high magnification for paper, but low magnification with a better FOV if I need to watch for splashes.

Hmmm.... I might have to take a look at installing a brake on there. Like you said, the recoil on a .308 isn't bad at all however I was having some muzzle jump. Part of that is probably attributed to not loading the bipod properly, but a brake would probably help with that as well.

Any suggestions for a good muzzle brake for a .308 bolt gun? Standard 5/8-24 threading.

Thanks.

[JMP]

Hmmm.... I might have to take a look at installing a brake on there. Like you said, the recoil on a .308 isn't bad at all however I was having some muzzle jump. Part of that is probably attributed to not loading the bipod properly, but a brake would probably help with that as well.

Any suggestions for a good muzzle brake for a .308 bolt gun? Standard 5/8-24 threading.

Thanks.

The most popular one for quality and economy is the Ross 3-port. They cost $45 and they are effective. The only issue is that they are meant for timing of the threads when they are installed, so you will need to use shims to get it aligned.

http://www.muzzlebrakesandmore.com/ROSS_SCHULERS_PAGE.php

Otherwise, I think APA makes good brakes and that is what I am using for my large rifles as the design makes them very efficient. They make them both with a shim style or a gunsmith to fit. Armalite makes very good brakes as well.

You have a common threading so finding a brake won't be an issue. Just make sure that you get a measurement of the thickness of your contour at muzzle and get a brake that is rated for that size. It's always the cleanest when you can get a brake that is threaded and timed by a machinist. If you get a clamp or shim style brake where no gunsmith is required, they should all work reasonably well, except that I've noticed that the cheap clamp/shim brakes are a catastrophe about moving around. The good ones that fit nicely with a clamp or shim mechanism actually cost more than the custom gunsmith install type.

More surface area is going to divert more gas so the larger brakes are more efficient. Also, the shape of the brake controls the directionality of the opposing force so the most efficient for reducing recoil are the ones that have clamshell shaped ports. Since you have a short barrel and don't need that much recoil reduction, you may actually opt for a less efficient brake. The clamshell style brakes have a sharper angle to the shockwave (back towards the shooter/line). The flat port brakes have more of a horizontal shockwave, which may be less of a nuisance on short barrels. If I use a very efficient clamshell shaped brake, I want that thing as far from me as possible. I think they work particularly well on 30"+ barrels. As you suggested, short barrels will do the best with suppressors, but that is not an option while in CA.

Personally, if you are iffy on the matter, I'd go with the Ross brake with some shim work as you can't go wrong with $45, and those are middle of the road in terms of size/style for recoil reduction. It's stainless steel so you may want to get the outside painted if the color mismatch is an issue for you.

When it comes to muzzle brakes, many of them these days are designed with excessive frills which are mostly a pure gimmick. Having a bunch of holes in them or angles ports with fluting and jewelling is cosmetic only.

[Hateca]

That's silly advice all the way around. The main differences between NATO and SAMMI specs are (1) SAMMI ammunition has a much higher pressure limit* (62k psi vs. 50kpsi) and NATO gun chambers can have much longer headspace (1.6405 vs. 1.6340). If there was going to be an issue it would be case head separation caused by a short, high pressure SAMMI cartridge in a long NATO chamber. The accuracy of military 7.62 might not be good, but it's not unsafe to shoot in a 308. I mean, sure, you should probably stay away from that deal on Malaysian 1960s surplus 7.62, but that's not because it's NATO spec.

US components? The gold-standard 308 brass comes from Europe, the best 308 powder comes from Australia, one of the best primers comes from Russia, and some of the best bullets are also from Europe. Prvi Partizan makes some decent match ammo from Serbia.


*This is only sorta true because the pressure is measured at different places so the two numbers are not directly comparable.

I'm talking 762 that is made in the US, not "308". You're right that there are some great components made in foreign countries but those are geared to reloaders not mass produced manufactures.

To say its not unsafe to shoot 762 in a .308 is a bold statement when one doesn't know the specs of the .308 chamber they're trying to shove that 762 into. I have match 308 chambers that won't even chamber 762. And I have some 762 chambers I wouldn't shoot .308 in.

As for Prvi Partizan, try telling that to the guy that had his rifle in my shop the other day with a stuck case in his chamber. What was it? Prvi Partizan "308". This was the one he couldn't remove, all the others he had to beat the bolt open to get it out. After inspecting the cases all were showing pressures issues. FGMM that he was using for accuracy comparison gave no such problem. The lucky thing for this guy, he was using a factory Remington rifle. If it was one of my custom chambered match rifles he would have had bigger issues. So no I do not recommend Prvi ammo at all especially for a custom built rifle.

I've seen all kinds of 762 "NATO" stuff both US and foreign made cause pressures issues with modern "tactical" rifles to know not to use it or recommend it, not worth the headache.

One can use whatever ammo that will work, is safe, and they are happy with. Sticking cases in a rifle is a sure sign of pressure. As long as the OP is aware that he may be experiencing pressure issue, and from what he is describing he is, then the OP has an idea where to look or what ammo is causing the problem.