First Bolt Gun: .308 or 6.5CM?

[JMP]

Pasted from DTA's website:



Conversions with a mag and bolt run $1650 to $2100.

MSRP for a short action complete is $1,513.40.

http://www.eurooptic.com/desert-tech-srs-conversion-kit-308-win-26in-ext-b-dt-srs-ckcdr-b.aspx

As you can see they have these in stock, but some of the individual parts are not in stock. If you ask very nicely, you can probably get an individual piece.

For a complete barrel:

http://www.eurooptic.com/desert-tech-srs-a-1-barrel-assembly-308-win-26in-ext-b-dt-srs-brcdr-b.aspx

$1,160.88

Alternatively:
Barrel Extension: $285
Bartlein Blank: $325
Gunsmith: $200-400
_______________________
$800 - $1,000 depending on brake

[postal]

You don't know beans.

I'm half Asian.

I dunno anything about beans...

I know rice....

ROR!

[vintagearms]

Whats the matter? Rapid fire and give yourself a black eye?

That bullpup takes getting used to... but they are actually nice rifles. Hard to justify the price unless you wanted the quick cartridge conversion ability though..

I'm going custom 700 as well. Though if I wanted caliber conversion... the DT is a serious product to look at. I'd get one if I wanted conversion, and could afford it (6.5 cd and 338 LM)

No, long arms, the DTA being as light as it is and the bolt so near my face= not a good combo. I did avoid getting hit it the face with it tho.

For a quick change (well, relatively quick change) there is the RemAge setup for the Remmys. Never done a barrel change in the field but would imagine it could be done with the right tools.

[JMP]

I'm half Asian.

I dunno anything about beans...

I know rice....

ROR!

Who are you kidding. You are obviously Mexican or Middle Eastern. That's what your half brother told me.

[postal]

LOL!!!!

[JMP]

No, long arms, the DTA being as light as it is and the bolt so near my face= not a good combo. I did avoid getting hit it the face with it tho.

For a quick change (well, relatively quick change) there is the RemAge setup for the Remmys. Never done a barrel change in the field but would imagine it could be done with the right tools.

Vintage, I think the point of and benefit from a DT is that you can easily change cartridges of different ACTION sizes, not simply just a barrel. In the SRS, you can go from as little as a .223 Rem (I heard they had or were coming out with .223 bolts) up to a .338 Improved with a quick change.

If you simply want a system to swap barrels in the field that use the SAME ACTION, such as 243 to 308, then the obvious choice would be the new line of Accuracy International rifles that come with an action screw and barrel wrench. If you look at them, they have a groove on the barrel for the wrench so you can screw it on and off without excessive torque such as can be done in the field. Not only is the barrel swap much cleaner and easier than a "Remage", the rifles are not even comparable in quality. It is an absolute no-brainer to go with a new Accuracy International if that is what you wanted to do.

Personally, for short actions, I see no need to swap one short action to another short action while in the field. Accuracy International makes a more complex change kit in the PSR which goes from short action to .338 Lapua; however, that rifle is $15k and that's a lot of heavy equipment to be lugging around.

The reason a DT SRS is a good rifle for a beginner is that it requires just one scope. You can get a .308, and from there, you can simply get a $1k barrel swap to a 6 or 6.5mm. Then, you can a full blown 338 Lapua for just another $1,700. Dedicated 338 Lapua setups will typically run over $5k, even for a mediocre one, so it signficantly decreases the barrier to entry. Then, with 338 Lapua, you are talking about a cartridge that has real capability.

The one thing that I'd urge is for people to get a very good scope if they were to invest in an SRS as that is the scope you will be using. If I had an SRS, I would use a Schmidt 5-25x56 PMII as that is a good all around scope for short action and long range. That will serve you a lot better than 3 different rifles with 3 different Bushnells.

[vintagearms]

Vintage, I think the point of and benefit from a DT is that you can easily change cartridges of different ACTION sizes, not simply just a barrel. In the SRS, you can go from as little as a .223 Rem (I heard they had or were coming out with .223 bolts) up to a .338 Improved with a quick change.

If you simply want a system to swap barrels in the field that use the SAME ACTION, such as 243 to 308, then the obvious choice would be the new line of Accuracy International rifles that come with an action screw and barrel wrench. If you look at them, they have a groove on the barrel for the wrench so you can screw it on and off without excessive torque such as can be done in the field. Not only is the barrel swap much cleaner and easier than a "Remage", the rifles are not even comparable in quality. It is an absolute no-brainer to go with a new Accuracy International if that is what you wanted to do.

Personally, for short actions, I see no need to swap one short action to another short action while in the field. Accuracy International makes a more complex change kit in the PSR which goes from short action to .338 Lapua; however, that rifle is $15k and that's a lot of heavy equipment to be lugging around.

The reason a DT SRS is a good rifle for a beginner is that it requires just one scope. You can get a .308, and from there, you can simply get a $1k barrel swap to a 6 or 6.5mm. Then, you can a full blown 338 Lapua for just another $1,700. Dedicated 338 Lapua setups will typically run over $5k, even for a mediocre one, so it signficantly decreases the barrier to entry. Then, with 338 Lapua, you are talking about a cartridge that has real capability.

The one thing that I'd urge is for people to get a very good scope if they were to invest in an SRS as that is the scope you will be using. If I had an SRS, I would use a Schmidt 5-25x56 PMII as that is a good all around scope for short action and long range. That will serve you a lot better than 3 different rifles with 3 different Bushnells.

All good points! The cons being more difficulty changing mags, a learning curve of operating the bolt and proprietary replacement parts.

[FourT6and2]

All good points! The cons being more difficulty changing mags, a learning curve of operating the bolt and proprietary replacement parts.

Difficulty changing mags, as in hit the mag release, mag drops out, put new mag in? Due to the bull pup design? I think I'll be ok, nobody will be shooting back at me on the range. But I'm not dead set on the SRS. I'm also considering the "classics" like Rem700 and AI, etc.

As for the learning curve, for me at least... it will exist no matter which bolt gun I go with, as I've never owned one. So maybe it's a good thing I won't have any "habits" to relearn RE: traditional bolt gun vs bull pup.

Proprietary parts are a legitimate concern, though.

[FourT6and2]

So if, and that's a big if, I do like the SRS after checking out this weekend, the way to go might be the .223 conversion from SAC and the standard 6.5 Creemoor for shooting out at longer ranges (for example, if I want to make the trek to Sac Valley, where they have 800 yards and so on).

[ar15barrels]

For a quick change (well, relatively quick change) there is the RemAge setup for the Remmys. Never done a barrel change in the field but would imagine it could be done with the right tools.

It is far faster to swap out barrels on a rifle where the barrels are machined to the specific receiver.
You just unscrew the barrel and screw in another.
The savage style barrel nut complicates headspace as you have to take the time to adjust and verify that headspace is correct.
It's really easy to get the headspace out of spec.
Swapping out fitted barrels is way easier and the headspace will be perfectly in spec every time.

[ar15barrels]

Difficulty changing mags, as in hit the mag release, mag drops out, put new mag in?

On the DTA, it's: LIFT UP RIFLE, press mag release, mag drops out, put in new mag, lower rifle back to the ground and re-acquire target.

On a traditional bolt action with AICS mags, while on target, it's: press mag release, mag drops out, insert new mag, close bolt and resume fire.
You don't have to move the rifle off target to change mags.

[JMP]

On the DTA, it's: LIFT UP RIFLE, press mag release, mag drops out, put in new mag, lower rifle back to the ground and re-acquire target.

On a traditional bolt action with AICS mags, while on target, it's: press mag release, mag drops out, insert new mag, close bolt and resume fire.
You don't have to move the rifle off target to change mags.

You can alleviate the need to lift by engaging the monopod, but the whole configuration is not going to be faster as they are only 5 round magazines the mechanism is less smooth. As I have maintained, the reason to shoot DT is for large cartridges where you really aren't concerned about fast magazine swaps.

If you know you just want to shoot short actions, it isn't even close. You should simply get an Accuracy International rifle all day, every day. It's quite difficult to find a rifle that you can operate more quickly than an Accuracy International. Also, these rifles have very very low recoil as the action is connected to the heavy duty aluminum stock and diverts recoil forward along the aluminum block below the barrel. It acts much differently from a rifle that is just plopped into a "chassis" and held in by action screws. I've noticed that the drop-in chasses lose most of the engineering value compared to rifles that are built on top of chasses as their design. Dropping an R700 into a chassis ain't even close to a rifle that is engineered with the chassis.

Don't be cheap; just get the right tool for the job.

[FourT6and2]

It is far faster to swap out barrels on a rifle where the barrels are machined to the specific receiver.
You just unscrew the barrel and screw in another.
The savage style barrel nut complicates headspace as you have to take the time to adjust and verify that headspace is correct.
It's really easy to get the headspace out of spec.
Swapping out fitted barrels is way easier and the headspace will be perfectly in spec every time.

Do many of the common bolt gun systems allow you to simply screw in a barrel? Many do, correct? Do any special procedures exist or is it really a simple matter of screwing the barrel on by hand?

On the DTA, it's: LIFT UP RIFLE, press mag release, mag drops out, put in new mag, lower rifle back to the ground and re-acquire target.

On a traditional bolt action with AICS mags, while on target, it's: press mag release, mag drops out, insert new mag, close bolt and resume fire.
You don't have to move the rifle off target to change mags.

Doesn't concern me too much as nobody will be shooting back at me at the range. Even on my AR15, I have to do the same thing because—bullet button. I guess same is true while shooting prone with an AR, even without a bullet button, since the mag would hit the ground. When would I need quick follow up shots AFTER a mag change anyway? I don't compete and I'm not a soldier.

If you know you just want to shoot short actions, it isn't even close. You should simply get an Accuracy International rifle all day, every day. It's quite difficult to find a rifle that you can operate more quickly than an Accuracy International. Also, these rifles have very very low recoil as the action is connected to the heavy duty aluminum stock and diverts recoil forward along the aluminum block below the barrel. It acts much differently from a rifle that is just plopped into a "chassis" and held in by action screws. I've noticed that the drop-in chasses lose most of the engineering value compared to rifles that are built on top of chasses as their design. Dropping an R700 into a chassis ain't even close to a rifle that is engineered with the chassis.

By "these rifles" are you referring to AI or SRS? Aren't AI rifles just a Rem700 action plopped into their chassis? Hard to tell from the info on their website.

I guess the typical option for a first bolt gun is a Rem700 action from whatever company you want, in whatever chassis/stock you want. For example, Defiance 700 action + whatever barrel + whatever stock (like Manners) and done?

[JTROKS]

I have 223, 22-250, 308, 270win and 300WSM. For 200 yard paper published punching I use the 223. If you don't reload better stick with something that's available on most shelves. If it's your first bolt rifle even the 308's recoil will tire you quickly compared to an all day shooting comfort of the 223. If you think you'll stretch out to 600 yards a 1-9 twist barrel will get you there with 69 grain bullets.

[RobertMW]

By "these rifles" are you referring to AI or SRS? Aren't AI rifles just a Rem700 action plopped into their chassis? Hard to tell from the info on their website.

I guess the typical option for a first bolt gun is a Rem700 action from whatever company you want, in whatever chassis/stock you want. For example, Defiance 700 action + whatever barrel + whatever stock (like Manners) and done?

He's definitely talking about AI guns. No they are not just a Rem 700 action plopped into their chassis.

A factory standard 700 action just has action screws holding the action to the stock/chassis, that means things can shift around a lot easier since there is only friction holding the action in most degrees of freedom.

A high end custom action will get you a few benefits: The bolt/receiver fit will be much more square and smooth, the barrel threads and face should be much more square to the bolt, the action should work cleaner, there should be integral recoil lugs that will mount securely in whatever chassis you are using to secure action in more degrees of freedom (primarily the worst one, along the barrel, to keep your action from shifting at all in recoil.)

An AI action/Chassis combo is going to get you everything a precision action will, plus it will have a chassis that is specifically designed to fit the action. This will give you the most secure fit between the action and chassis. Nothing will move, recoil forces will be distributed more evenly, and any assembly stress will be distributed more evenly across the action.

It's not that there are no other companies that design a chassis to fit a particular action better, but AI has the specs for both, built in house, fit in house.

Keeping design and manufacturing in house makes a big difference, I know this, I'm an engineer, that's what I do. Consistent quality control makes a world of difference. Knowing the specific design intent of mating parts is huge. Manufacturing precision parts in the same environment is crucial. By doing everything in house, like AI does, you control all those factors, allowing you to make the most precision mechanical components you can.