Bell & Carlson Stocks - Style 4 M40 vs Style 2 Vertical Grip

[LBDamned]

I'd bet 20 bucks that you'll never go hunting.
Just buy the stock that works best for you from the bench and don't worry about possibly, maybe, perhaps, someday hunting. If you do ever go hunting, borrow a gun or lug your bench gun around until you figure out that hunting is fun and you want a dedicated hunting rifle.

I (partially) agree with this... not the part about never hunting - but definitely regarding "borrow a gun"...

I'd bet far more than $20 that the vast majority of SoCal gun owners don't hunt... and I'd bet even more that of the few that do, they don't hunt locally (that would be me)... Friends/Family that you hunt with will have plenty of guns to choose from.

OP, NapalmCheese is right - design your bolt gun for local bench and/or prone target shooting... unless you are in the extreme minority, that's what you will use the rifle for... if/when you hunt - there will be available options for you.

Now - if you are "prepping" for SHTF and need something to kill your meal... well... that's a whole other topic that would go wonky real quick (but I've got my 'mergency plan anyway )

[LMNO]

LMNO. I sent you an email but thought I'd post in the forum as well.

Stock shapes, grip angles and palm swells vary from model and manufacture and it's sometimes a difficult task making a choice when examples are not present for you to shoulder. As others have mentioned, different grip angles work better for different applications AND they will vary from shooter to shooter. For me, there is a HUGH difference between a traditional grip, pistol grip and a vertical grip. The traditional grip, for me, works better in a hunting or in multi-positional shooting because the elbow of the shooting arm can vary its position without affecting the grip. The vertical grip, again for me, is best for shooting from a bench and prone because the elbow is, or almost, horizontal. The pistol grip is sort of in the middle but the usual opinion is you either hate them or love them. They are very much like an AR and if you find them comfortable, the pistol grip will probably work for you. Like some shooters, I don't wrap my thumb around the grip when I shoot so the grip angle on most chassis with a pistol grip don't work for me. There are a couple of chassis that have a vertical grip, see the KRG X-Ray and the Whiskey 3, where one can get comfortable but most are not my cup of tea. I much prefer a vertical grip if given a choice.

Just as important as the grip angle is the amount of palm swell the grip may have. The HS Precision stocks from the take-off Remington 5Rs and 700Ps have a traditional grip angle and a fairly large swell. The B&C is suppose to have a smaller palm swell which makes it a little more comfortable for those with small or medium hands.

Another thing to consider when looking a stocks is the angle of the stock where it rides/sits in the bags. Many have a tapered bottom which is easier to make small elevation changes but if using the heavy "rabbit-earred" bags, they don't ride fore and aft as well as the flat bottomed ones. For that application, usually bench work or F-class when using a front rest, the flatter bottom stocks are a little better. Not saying one cannot shoot well with the angled bottom, it just takes practice and I do think they allow better adjustment when shooting prone from the bipod.

Hope this helps...Sig Marine

Thank you so much Sig Marine for the well-detailed reply. It gives me a lot to think about. I'll be using this as a guide as I revisit my choices. And thank you for bringing up the use of bags. Would've never known that. So yes, this helps a ton!

I have never heard anyone complain about the weight of B&C stock EVER until now. They are not heavy at all, balance and weight of the rifle is going to be far more dependent on barrel length and profile as well as the optics.

"Plenty Accurate" is a relative term. SCAR's are great (albeit expensive) rifles but they are not going to compare to the accuracy and range of a good bolt action set up. They are also not featherweights. I don't think they fit the presented philosophies of use here very well. They make phenomenal tactical rifles for close to medium range engagements, but when we are talking bench rest and hunting bolt action is king. Semi auto 308's are expensive to buy and expensive to feed.

I said unless your are looking for precision. I would hunt with a SCAR without any concern over accuracy, that comes down to the shooter and glass, within range of the rifle you are using and the ammo ballistics. My Rem700 in B&C was over 12lb without glass.. no one is lugging that around far to hunt with. Read what I wrote before commenting.

I read exactly what you wrote.

Hunting accuracy and bench accuracy are two totally different things, since the OP said its primarily going to be a bench gun I would guess that they are looking for REAL precision. Your rifle was 12 pounds naked because of the barrel length and profile...not the stock. The SPS tactical is around 7.5 lbs with the factory stock installed. Remove the old stock and add a new one and you are not playing around with big weight differences here. Its not as light as some designated hunting rifles, but its light enough to serve as one. I would also guess that it is lighter than the SCAR.

When someone asks about a $250 stock in their price range and you come on talking about a $2,700 rifle it seems like you are missing the point of the thread. So do not accuse me of not reading before I comment.

Just to clarify, I was looking at the B&C stocks because the reviews seem good and, if the stock I end up buying doesn't fit me, then I wouldn't be out too much money. If I knew exactly what style I wanted, I'd save up for a better brand. I am currently keeping any eye out for slight-used or new take-off HS Precisions as well. And, going by the replies, I am leaning more towards the traditional stock. It sounds more flexible in terms of shooting positions.

I'd bet 20 bucks that you'll never go hunting.
Just buy the stock that works best for you from the bench and don't worry about possibly, maybe, perhaps, someday hunting. If you do ever go hunting, borrow a gun or lug your bench gun around until you figure out that hunting is fun and you want a dedicated hunting rifle.

I (partially) agree with this... not the part about never hunting - but definitely regarding "borrow a gun"...

I'd bet far more than $20 that the vast majority of SoCal gun owners don't hunt... and I'd bet even more that of the few that do, they don't hunt locally (that would be me)... Friends/Family that you hunt with will have plenty of guns to choose from.

OP, NapalmCheese is right - design your bolt gun for local bench and/or prone target shooting... unless you are in the extreme minority, that's what you will use the rifle for... if/when you hunt - there will be available options for you.

Now - if you are "prepping" for SHTF and need something to kill your meal... well... that's a whole other topic that would go wonky real quick (but I've got my 'mergency plan anyway )

After reading the replies here and doing some ore research, I am settled on making this rifle bench-only. I have to start somewhere and it seems best to keep my goals few and simple.

You guys may just win $20 lol! I personally only know one friend who hunts. If I ever go hunting, I'll try to tag along with him first to get a feel for it. Maybe try out his rifle.Then, if its something I still want to pursue, I'll start my search for a proper hunting rifle.

And I doubt I'll be able to hunting anything where I life if SHTF lol! Might be better off with a .22.

[ERdept]

I bought two B&C and wish I never did...terrible build quality and finish...both fully adjustable medalists.... Sold both after finally making them work and would never buy another.

I had this issue as well.


I just saved for McMillan and was happy.

[Sig Marine]

Just to clarify, I was looking at the B&C stocks because the reviews seem good and, if the stock I end up buying doesn't fit me, then I wouldn't be out too much money. If I knew exactly what style I wanted, I'd save up for a better brand. I am currently keeping any eye out for slight-used or new take-off HS Precisions as well. And, going by the replies, I am leaning more towards the traditional stock. It sounds more flexible in terms of shooting positions.

After reading the replies here and doing some ore research, I am settled on making this rifle bench-only. I have to start somewhere and it seems best to keep my goals few and simple.

As I mentioned in my post, stocks are a personal thing. For example, some people LOVE the AICS stocks. I would not take one, even if given to me. Does this mean I think they are a bad stock? NO. They are a good stock but just not for me. There are some shooters who will tell you they like the build quality and fit of the B&C better than the HS Precision. Others in previous posts have the opposite opinion. It's kinda like a Ford and Chevy thing. You will have to try one to see what you like. Stocks are fairly easy to resell and as you stated, you really won't loose that much.

Getting an entry level stock is a starting point, as you mentioned, and either stock will do the job and learning what you want in an inexpensive stock will give you the information to make an informed decision when stepping up. Either will benefit you by being stiffer than the stock that came on your rifle from the factory. The traditional grip is very forgiving. I still have factory rifles that have them and it doesn't affect my abilities when shooting them.

This will get you out on the range to shoot and where you can meet other shooters who may have different and/or higher end stocks. Most shooters are proud of their rifles and asking another shooter if you can get behind their rifle to feel the stock (make sure you take a look through their scope as well) is usually met with pride and enthusiasm. Some will even let you take a few shots which will provide even more input for you.

The reason I mention taking a look through their scope is that scopes are more confusing than stocks. There are so many out there at various price points and everyone has their preferences. Being able to see the glass clarity and reticles on different scopes, even without shooting the rifle, will give you some information about what YOU like and dislike. While the old adage is "buy the best glass you can afford", you don't have to spend "north" of $2000 to get decent glass. There are some terrific scopes out there in the $1000-$1500 range. Most places that carry scopes only have a limited selection of makes and models. Being able to explore and expand your options without buying first is a huge advantage.

Enjoy the journey...Sig Marine

[wt4]

I have the M40 on my SPS Tac. Very happy with it. Good fit and good cheek weld for me. With the bull barrel, scope and bipod it weighs in at 10.2lbs unloaded.

I get very good results shooting prone with the bipod and rear sandbag.

It definitely can get a little heavy for unsupported shooting positions, but I don't find it too heavy to just carry around for the day.

[Jarhead]

H-S is closer to McMillian than B&C but then today I prefer my AICS over the three, which I have on rifles and shoot

[LMNO]

As I mentioned in my post, stocks are a personal thing. For example, some people LOVE the AICS stocks. I would not take one, even if given to me. Does this mean I think they are a bad stock? NO. They are a good stock but just not for me. There are some shooters who will tell you they like the build quality and fit of the B&C better than the HS Precision. Others in previous posts have the opposite opinion. It's kinda like a Ford and Chevy thing. You will have to try one to see what you like. Stocks are fairly easy to resell and as you stated, you really won't loose that much.

Getting an entry level stock is a starting point, as you mentioned, and either stock will do the job and learning what you want in an inexpensive stock will give you the information to make an informed decision when stepping up. Either will benefit you by being stiffer than the stock that came on your rifle from the factory. The traditional grip is very forgiving. I still have factory rifles that have them and it doesn't affect my abilities when shooting them.

This will get you out on the range to shoot and where you can meet other shooters who may have different and/or higher end stocks. Most shooters are proud of their rifles and asking another shooter if you can get behind their rifle to feel the stock (make sure you take a look through their scope as well) is usually met with pride and enthusiasm. Some will even let you take a few shots which will provide even more input for you.

The reason I mention taking a look through their scope is that scopes are more confusing than stocks. There are so many out there at various price points and everyone has their preferences. Being able to see the glass clarity and reticles on different scopes, even without shooting the rifle, will give you some information about what YOU like and dislike. While the old adage is "buy the best glass you can afford", you don't have to spend "north" of $2000 to get decent glass. There are some terrific scopes out there in the $1000-$1500 range. Most places that carry scopes only have a limited selection of makes and models. Being able to explore and expand your options without buying first is a huge advantage.

Enjoy the journey...Sig Marine

Thank you yet again for another well-detailed reply.

I was thinking about the grip earlier and it hit me that I do like the way the factory Hogue stock feels when shouldered. Since the Hogue is a traditional grip, I will stick with that as my starting point. Right now, I am keeping an eye on the Marketplace as well as eBay. Where ever a good deal comes up on a traditional stock in whichever brand, I'll buy it.

As to the scope, I hear you. I've spent time researching them before and man does it make my brain hurt. Just when I think I've found "The One", another one comes along lol! Not sure when I'll get out to the range again and have an opportunity to look through scopes, but if I have to pick one up in a hurry, I may try SWFA as they have very good reviews for the price point.

I don't get out to the local outdoor range much and when I do I'm usually focused on shooting what I brought. Next time I will only take the rifle and take your advice and see if I can be a bit more social and observant during cease-fire. Last time I was there, there were quite a few older gents shooting and I figure it would be worth it to pick their brains while admiring their rifles.

I have the M40 on my SPS Tac. Very happy with it. Good fit and good cheek weld for me. With the bull barrel, scope and bipod it weighs in at 10.2lbs unloaded.

I get very good results shooting prone with the bipod and rear sandbag.

It definitely can get a little heavy for unsupported shooting positions, but I don't find it too heavy to just carry around for the day.

Thank you for the feedback.

H-S is closer to McMillian than B&C but then today I prefer my AICS over the three, which I have on rifles and shoot

ACIS do seem pretty high tech, but I've read reviews that are basically 50/50 love it or hate it in regards to how it feels shouldered. Maybe I'll be able to get behind one and try one out someday.

[Thanatos2203]

As to the scope, I hear you. I've spent time researching them before and man does it make my brain hurt. Just when I think I've found "The One", another one comes along lol! Not sure when I'll get out to the range again and have an opportunity to look through scopes, but if I have to pick one up in a hurry, I may try SWFA as they have very good reviews for the price point.

I happen to have an SWFA on the same rifle that has the B&C stock on it. I think, like the B&C, they are a good value for the money. I've certainly seen clearer glass, but durability and functionality for the price is hard to beat. I run the fixed 20x and really have no complaints. I have it in the inexpensive SWFA rings and they have held up just fine to .308's lack of recoil.

A lot of people think you need to spend one to two times as much on glass as you did your rifle. I don't think this is appropriate for all levels of shooters and finances. $1k on glass or an AICS chassis is too much for me so I seek out other options. I'm sure these products are great but rent comes first.

[Packy14]

I read exactly what you wrote.

Hunting accuracy and bench accuracy are two totally different things, since the OP said its primarily going to be a bench gun I would guess that they are looking for REAL precision. Your rifle was 12 pounds naked because of the barrel length and profile...not the stock. The SPS tactical is around 7.5 lbs with the factory stock installed. Remove the old stock and add a new one and you are not playing around with big weight differences here. Its not as light as some designated hunting rifles, but its light enough to serve as one. I would also guess that it is lighter than the SCAR.

When someone asks about a $250 stock in their price range and you come on talking about a $2,700 rifle it seems like you are missing the point of the thread. So do not accuse me of not reading before I comment.

He said he might take it hunting. Most people can't tell the difference in accuracy between very good and not so accurate guns because of their ability.