The notion that W. German Sig Sauers are somehow worth more than USA Sig Sauer.

[_TomT_]

would you please show an example of a P220 with scalloped frame?

Ahh you guys are right, no idea why I said P220 with scalloped frames. That being said there are plenty of P220 with cracked frames. However the bulk of cracked frames fall on the German P226s. I did more research on the P226 than the P220 since that is what I ended up with.

[QXSOUP]

What was wrong with it? Also there is nothing wrong with MIM parts, HK which had been 100% consistent when it came to reliability and quality had turned to MIM parts for cost cutting. All of my MIMparted HK ran thousands of rounds perfect, of course I will hold my HKs in higher regard than my Sigs or pretty much any pistol I own for that matter. But I mean, if Sigs were to use steel parts for all of their internals they couldn't compete with other brands. Their pistols already cost way too much this would bring them deep into WC/NH territory.



What do you mean impossible. Just google Sig P220 frame cracks, youll see plenty of results even ones without scalloped frames.

My Dark Elite had a ton of problems. I bought it in 2009 when they first came out. The rear sight is **** It is adjustable and would NOT hold zero. The slide was perfect- not a burr to be found but the frame was a mess. Inconsistent finish and I don't really care for the SRT (especially the early version that I had with the shorter safety lever) I sold it to a co worker at the time and he still has it.

I have no problem with MIM parts... when they are done correctly. The problem is that Sig went to the lowest bidder for a long time after Cohen came into the picture and the quality was terrible... broken extractors and VERY rough machining. They used some company in India to make most of the MIM parts for a few years. Quality has improved greatly since then.

[rbcb]

I own W. German and American made sigs and believe the new ones function just as well as the German sigs. Also the new sigs are stainless as opposed the carbon the older ones are made from, and no more roll pins falling out like they did on the German ones.
Its all a collector thing.

[Barbarosa]

I think you have to own one to understand.

[_TomT_]

My Dark Elite had a ton of problems. I bought it in 2009 when they first came out. The rear sight is **** It is adjustable and would NOT hold zero. The slide was perfect- not a burr to be found but the frame was a mess. Inconsistent finish and I don't really care for the SRT (especially the early version that I had with the shorter safety lever) I sold it to a co worker at the time and he still has it.

I have no problem with MIM parts... when they are done correctly. The problem is that Sig went to the lowest bidder for a long time after Cohen came into the picture and the quality was terrible... broken extractors and VERY rough machining. They used some company in India to make most of the MIM parts for a few years. Quality has improved greatly since then.

I hear you on that part, and 2008-2009 was probably the darkest year in Sig's history. People were ready with pitchforks and torches when Cohen did that. 2013+ Sigs are good to go in my book. That being said I would to own a German Sig but I highly doubt the Sig of today 2014 will be any less durable/reliable than a Sig of old.

[missiontrails]

I'll take the newer american stainless P220/226 slide all day long over the older German two piece carbon steel slides.

[Ronin2]

Ahh you guys are right, no idea why I said P220 with scalloped frames. That being said there are plenty of P220 with cracked frames. However the bulk of cracked frames fall on the German P226s. I did more research on the P226 than the P220 since that is what I ended up with.

Trolling a bit aren't you? The overall quality of the build, fit and finish aside, that the German made guns represent is preferred by many shooters.

As for the magazine capacity for YOU they are all 10 rounds unless YOU are breaking the law.

Personally I own fifteen German made SiG's and six US/Exeter made guns. While I like the fit and finish of the German guns I suppose, the black nitron finish of the American guns is far more durable. What I clearly prefer about the German guns is their balance and "feel" in the hand with their slightly lighter slides and lack of railed frames.

My P228 is one of my EDC weapons and if it had a rail I would not be. I personally oppose the "lets put a rail on everything" approach the pistol industry has adopted. The only two pistols that I own that are wearing a light is the P220R in my nightstand and the P226m25 that I use when I participate in low light/night tactical training,

I suppose collect ability has a factory too. I seem addicted to buying all the old West German made P series pistols I come across that are NIB with complete sets... Manuals, test targets etc in the old school cardboard boxes.

As for a "real" P228 M11 ... You can expect to pay as much as $2000 for one. That is, one that was issued by the US military with all the correct markings/roll marks and provenance. Here is what one looks like and yes its proud new owner got it for far less that its worth....

http://sigtalk.com/sig-sauer-pistols/31678-genuine-military-issue-m11.html

[_TomT_]

Trolling a bit aren't you? The overall quality of the build, fit and finish aside, that the German made guns represent is preferred by many shooters.

As for the magazine capacity for YOU they are all 10 rounds unless YOU are breaking the law.

Personally I own fifteen German made SiG's and six US/Exeter made guns. While I like the fit and finish of the German guns I suppose, the black nitron finish of the American guns is far more durable. What I clearly prefer about the German guns is their balance and "feel" in the hand with their slightly lighter slides and lack of railed frames.

My P228 is one of my EDC weapons and if it had a rail I would not be. I personally oppose the "lets put a rail on everything" approach the pistol industry has adopted. The only two pistols that I own that are wearing a light is the P220R in my nightstand and the P226m25 that I use when I participate in low light/night tactical training,

I suppose collect ability has a factory too. I seem addicted to buying all the old West German made P series pistols I come across that are NIB with complete sets... Manuals, test targets etc in the old school cardboard boxes.

As for a "real" P228 M11 ... You can expect to pay as much as $2000 for one. That is, one that was issued by the US military with all the correct markings/roll marks and provenance. Here is what one looks like and yes its proud new owner got it for far less that its worth....

http://sigtalk.com/sig-sauer-pistols...issue-m11.html

Err read the thread, I said I was moving to Texas soon. Also people expected to be paid way too much for a P228 IMHO. My original point still stands, reliability/druability/shootability a P229 M11-A1 is equal to any P228. People can prefer anything they want, however when it comes down to it both guns are equal in my book.

[ningning]

If one is familiar with manufacturing, he should understand the quality of product does not only rely on the machine, but a big part on the operators of the machine.

[Ronin2]

Err read the thread, I said I was moving to Texas soon. Also people expected to be paid way too much for a P228 IMHO. My original point still stands, reliability/druability/shootability a P229 M11-A1 is equal to any P228. People can prefer anything they want, however when it comes down to it both guns are equal in my book.

Should be the end of the issue. Don't buy a P228. As for people expecting to be paid way too much for a P228 that is most certainly your humble opinion, which for the most part, based on market activity, is wrong. I suggest you spend some of your apparent research skills on gunbroker.com to look at realized prices for P228's if you don't believe me.

One other factor that will contribute to the increased pricing for P228's in the secondary market; it is a very desirable handgun (for a number of reasons) that is no longer on the Ca Roster. Lucky you that's soon not to be an issue for you but here in CA, the P228 which is not a very common gun in our own CalGuns Classifieds or in general, the now limited, finite supply of P228's will do nothing but increase in value over time, as will many other desirable pistols whose supply in the state has now been set with the loss of the SSE option.

In the mean time, buy a M11A1 or even a P229. They are great weapons as well, just not as "cool" in the SiG community.

Cheers

[bsg]

If one is familiar with manufacturing, he should understand the quality of product does not only rely on the machine, but a big part on the operators of the machine.

i'd venture to say that the OCD that the germans have always been known for is evident in the w german Sig Sauer P series handgun. the only break-in time associated with a w german Sig is the time it takes at the range for a trigger to smooth out; that's it.

[Mayor McRifle]

It just novelty factor

With an added snob element. Have you ever noticed that owners of old Sigs always seem to include the "West German" part when providing the make, model, and caliber of their gun?

[SkyHawk]

The P228 is the same as the M11. The M11A1 based on the 229, has never been issued or adopted by the military. Yes Homeland Security and Coast Guard issue the P229DAK, but not Army or Naval Aviation etc. I'm not saying the P228 / M11 is better, I'm just saying it is genuine military adopted and issued, and to many people that is worth paying a premium.

Sig plays a little on this premise in their own marketing of the M11A1 to civilians. First they tell you how the M11 is issued to key military units, then they try and sell you the 'upgraded' civilian M11A1.

http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/m11-a1.aspx

[Mayor McRifle]

The German made SIGs are better made in their fit, finish and tolerances and as a result more reliable and accurate. I know this causes some butt hurt, but US made SIGs often go back for repair right out of the box. That doesn't happen with German made guns.

Because all the bad ones got sent back decades ago.

[static2126]

Looking around for an M11-A1, and came across some P228s, so I was like okay sure I'll glady buy a used one. Well the sellers all want equal or greater than the price of an M11-A1. So really what gives? Is a P228 W. German somehow magical causing them to push up into the high 9s to thousand dollar range? Is it better in some way? I've own two other Sigs both Exeter and they seem to be fine, literally 100% reliable *knock on wood. What makes the W. German Sigs better besides the novelty factor?

What is your round count op? Have one german sig 3 usa ones. My usa ones have had more issues once I past 6k rounds or so per gun